by Big news was broken yesterday: Jesus and his family have been founded dead in their graves in Israel.
What does this discovery mean for the religious myths that bind us and for the sustenance of the Resurrection ideal to Christians across the world?
How does one now translate God?
Without the Resurrection, doesn’t Christianity become an empty vessel?
How can we begin to live if Jesus Christ has been found dead?
Does His death strengthen our faith?
Or does it weaken it with unanswerable questions that sting us like burrs in our socks?
The Time Magazine blog provides the details:
Brace yourself. James Cameron, the man who brought you ‘The Titanic’ is back with another blockbuster. This time, the ship he’s sinking is Christianity. In a new documentary, Producer Cameron and his director, Simcha Jacobovici, make the starting claim that Jesus wasn’t resurrected –the cornerstone of Christian faith– and that his burial cave was discovered near Jerusalem. And, get this, Jesus sired a son with Mary Magdelene. No, it’s not a re-make of “The Da Vinci Code.”
It’s supposed to be true.
Let’s go back 27 years, when Israeli construction workers were gouging out the foundations for a new building in the industrial park in the Talpiyot, a Jerusalem suburb. of Jerusalem. The earth gave way, revealing a 2,000 year old cave with 10 stone caskets. Archaeologists were summoned, and the stone caskets carted away for examination. It took 20 years for experts to decipher the names on the ten tombs.
They were: Jesua, son of Joseph, Mary, Mary, Mathew, Jofa and Judah, son of Jesua. Israel’s prominent archaeologist Professor Amos Kloner didn’t associate the crypt with the New Testament Jesus. His father, after all, was a humble carpenter who couldn’t afford a luxury crypt for his family. And all were common Jewish names.
There was also this little inconvenience that a few miles away, in the old city of Jerusalem, Christians for centuries had been worshipping the empty tomb of Christ at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Christ’s resurrection, after all, is the main foundation of the faith, proof that a boy born to a carpenter’s wife in a manger is the Son of God. But film-makers Cameron and Jacobovici claim to have amassed evidence through DNA tests, archaeological evidence and Biblical studies, that the 10 coffins belong to Jesus and his family.
If this non-Resurrection discovery proves to be true or not, the necessary and prodigal process of shattering the Jesus myth into Atheism is telling on many levels.
I understand this revolt against the sanctity of the core of Christianity is a direct response to the rise of Christian Fundamentalism in America where Believers now force their myths into mandatory mainstream acceptance: “If you don’t Believe, you’re sinner; if you don’t Repent, you’re going into the fires of hell.”
The Fundamentalists achieve that punctilious end by poisoning the Political process with their harsh and unloving beliefs and the rest of America — the unmoved middle class who prefer soccer to sacrilege — go along with the movements of the breeze as long as it doesn’t adversely affect their lifestyle.
With the Far Right Fundamentalists pressing their agenda into Iraq and Iran and even here on the Homeland in the Supreme Court and in the villages and the valleys, the middle class are beginning to see their precious personal rights are winnowing away in the sweaty palms of those who believe in blood and nails and those who worship the implements of death like crucifixes and spears — instead of loving each other just enough to leave people alone.
If the myth is unwillingly perpetuated into popular culture by the True Believers — sooner or later people, good people, will rise up and fight back for the right to be left alone and to think as they wish and not as others command them to think. One of the weapons the mighty ordinary wield against the Myths of the Believers is the scientific process.
If you press “Lord Jesus” into our public schools and in our Courthouses beyond a cursory wave, science will be used to slay your myth and humble your outrageous and hateful claims against those you brand as unworthy and foreign and unlike you and those who choose not to believe as you Believe. This challenge to the Jesus Resurrection will prove interesting as science and technology become even more powerful and infallible.
Carbon Dating is hard to render into belief but it easily shatters myths. DNA does not lie or require Blind Faith to be believed. The New York Times has an article today detailing how the Radical Right cannot find a “suitable” candidate for the 2008 presidential election:
But in a stark shift from the group’s influence under President Bush, the group risks relegation to the margins. Many of the conservatives who attended the event, held at the beginning of the month at the Ritz-Carlton on Amelia Island, Fla., said they were dismayed at the absence of a champion to carry their banner in the next election.
Many conservatives have already declared their hostility to Senator John McCain of Arizona, despite his efforts to make amends for having once denounced Christian conservative leaders as “agents of intolerance,” and to former Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani of New York, because of his liberal views on abortion and gay rights and his three marriages.
Many were also suspicious of former Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts; members have used the council as a conduit to distribute a dossier prepared by a Massachusetts conservative group about liberal elements of his record on abortion, stem cell research and gay rights. (Mr. Romney has worked to convince conservatives that his views have changed.)
The story goes on to examine the erosion of the Radical Right’s influence in the substantial sleeping middle class and how dismayed the Christian Fundamentalists are as they realize their time in the sun is rightfully, righteously and religiously, fading away into deserved darkness. Belief can never trump Science if it is forced down the throats of the neutral and the unwilling.
When religion is made mandatory-by-politics in a democracy, people slowly begin to turn away from the forced heat of hatred and its dangerous branding aftereffects and they begin to awaken to realize they prefer to coolly challenge the myths binding the national mindset with the cold reality of the scientific process.
Some may hope to slay the non-Believers with the power of the sword, while the rest are perfectly content in allowing science to defend unfettered facts and to render radical religious dogma powerless in the overarching needs of humanity in order to get along together in the world without pressing one Faith into the flesh over another — and that process begins and perpetuates — in the discovery of a tomb in Israel where Jesua’s body was found dead, but resurrected, by archaeology and science.
I wonder if the silence here speaks for itself – or if it is just Sunday blogging blues?
I have to admit the possible significance/ramifications of this had passed me by.
It is going to be very interesting to see how this plays out – and how the big players react to it.
Is this the end of organised religion as we know it ?
Hi Nicola!
I appreciate you leaping into the mix! We’ve had some nasty comments that didn’t get published. One person accused me of “drooling over the savior’s body” and it got worse from there. That kind of sniping without thought and argument serves no purpose.
The True Believers will react the same way they reacted to the scientific proof via Carbon-14 dating “The Shroud of Turin” was a fake:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3624753.stm
I don’t think this will end religion as we know it — though I do find it fascinating so much Blind Faith is placed in the books of the Bible when it is such a disparate morass of different authors over a long period of time.
But if you can believe the Bible is the Word of God then you can easily explain away DNA and dead bodies by refusing to listen to the scientific discovery and by claiming those who do listen are going straight to the fiery pits of eternal Hell. That kind of threatening admonition shuts up most people pretty quickly.
Bit story. Big idea. I’m not surprised by the lack of a response. Those who agree with you don’t want the hassle of dealing with those who don’t. We’ve all seen, and some experienced, the fundamentalist attack dogs.
You’re probably right, Anne. It’s a hard thing to want to be left alone but see the rising time of fundamentalism circling all around you.
Soon those good people will have to rise up even more to press down the repression surrounding them.
There was a time in America — I remember it being alive in my lifetime — when you were free to choose as you pleased and no one would bother you either way or any way.
Those days are dead and gone and many people have been suffocating under the lies and false idols of the last 8 years and can’t wait to get out from under the weight of its suffocating deception.
I think that’s why there’s such an anticipation for the 2008 election. People want to move on, to get away, to start something new and to get out from under these religious stigmata stinging our life as a nation.
I remember reading something someone said here a short time ago that if God is real it will be the scientists, not religious believers, who prove it. In light of today’s article, that’s an interesting idea to think about.
The scientific process is a hard taskmaster, Anne.
When one claims to have the all the truth and all the facts and then provides a myth and storytelling as evidentiary proof, the fact finders and the scientists will flock to the idea to provide its open-mouthed veracity or its occlusion.
“There was a time in America — I remember it being alive in my lifetime — when you were free to choose as you pleased and no one would bother you either way or any way.”
So when did it change …… and why ?
Anne – that is a very interesting viewpoint about the scientists proving the existence of God.
Hey Nicola!
I think it began in earnest as a political plan of advancement starring religious fundamentalism as an anchor of political governing with Ronald Reagan.
He gave rise and inclusion in the process of governing to overt religious fanatics who then began to set national policy from inside the Executive Branch and on the judicial benches across America.
Then we had a short break with Clinton — but his blowjob gave the fanatics a justifiable reason to come out from their fundamentalist shell to feign outrage and disgust — and that’s when sex and then women’s rights and then abortion came under fire as “liberal advances” that must be repealed instead of honoring those accomplishments as the necessary evolution of gender rights.
The last 8 years have been a tamping down of what Reagan started and we see just how far off the cliff we’ve fallen at home and in our world standing.
I think that’s why Barack Obama is so pleasing to so many: He’s new. He was right on the war from the jump. He lives in the midst of discrimination and hatred every day of his life and he finds a way to not only survive, but to succeed as well.
I enjoy your thoughts on this Nicola and I like how you always jump right in fearlessly to answer whatever comes up. I don’t remember who said that about the scientists discovering God here but it had to be here because this is where I get those kinds of ideas to think about.
I agree, Anne! There’s nothing so great as a Nicola comment starting off the day and the thread!
😀
Here’s more on the evolutionary proof of DNA:
Well someone has to ! 🙂 🙂
Thank you for the time line – I quite often try to look back and see where the UK’s own brand of rot started and fail to pinpoint it – or get sidetracked down other avenues.
Barack Obama is indeed interesting – I don’t think the Clintons are sleeping very well at the moment.
I think we need to be inspired – we need to know that there is hope – even in the worst situations – and we need to know that if WE work hard we will be rewarded. I get the feeling he gives people that hope.
I appreciate you coming in here on a Sunday and doing the heavy lifting on a hard topic, Nicola!
😀
I remember in school we took a Straw Poll in class and Reagan beat Bush, Sr. by 80 points in our “Republican Primary” and we all know kids that young are just voicing the wants of their parents.
Everyone was sick of Carter — even the diehard Democrats.
I was shocked even back then because at least Bush, Sr. had some national exposure and experience while Reagan just seemed like some wild pretend cowboy from California. He had no substance.
It was then I realized that maybe it wasn’t the man, but the moment, that defined national politics and presidential choices.
If Barack is the Democrat nominee he will lose. The Republicans will do to him what they did to Harold Ford, Jr. in the Tennessee Senate race. It will be ugly and obvious and divisive and it will be nothing new from them and we’ll have a new royal-in-waiting, King Rudy Giuliani.
Ahhhhhh the heir apparent ……….. made of course by 9/11.
You think it will be a Clinton / Giuliani contest – and who will their running mates be?
Right! The problem with Giuliani is how cruel and awful he was pre-9/11. He’ll be a further continuation of Bush’s bully pulpit politicking.
Clinton/Obama would rock, but would people vote two first in one swig? Probably not. I predict Clinton/Bayh. Edwards won’t go for the VP slot again and I don’t blame him.
Giuliani needs someone to soften him up. He needs friendly. He needs someone like hmm… I’m having a hard time thinking of anyone Republican who fits that role. Hmm… maybe Joe Lieberman will finally bolt and make history twice!
Some are saying current NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg might make an Independent run. He’ll use his own money and won’t have to owe or answer to anybody just as he does now in NYC and it’s working.
Apologies for taking this rather off topic ………… drags it back a little .
Question – do the churches donate money to the campaigns ?
ie do they collect money on a Sunday and donate on a Monday ?
Bloomberg option sounds interesting.
Nicola —
The churches don’t really directly raise money for candidates, the Political Action Committees do that for them: PAC Money —
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?Ind=Q14
— Bloomberg is a strange and wonderful guy. He has the city humming. He’s fair. He lives for his job. He truly answers to no one because few people have as much money as he does. He’s the perfect politician in many respects: Tough, smart, kind-hearted, business savvy, no personal beliefs pressed into others, Inclusive.
WOW! what an interesting topic! my family is of mixed religions and so they get into huge battles and fueds, often going for years not speaking to each other as a result, over wither one religion is better than another, or which docteric is the “one true” docterin. I well have to pass this article on to them, see what they have to say about it… I could guess, they’ll probl’y all say it’s a hoax…
as for myself, I look at religion as a thing that we use to improve us, and as such I follow no one religion, but tudy all of them… one thing I like to do is to find historic proof… archological finds and such that support or refute various aspects of religon…
WOW! the possible discovery of Jesus’ body! THAT is such a great find… the way I see it it could go one way or the other…
they prove it’s him, and either religion goes crazy, drunk on power, each trying to be the one to “house” his body in their church, so they can charge people tons of money to come see his remains
or. they prove it’s him and religion goes crazy, in their attempt to destroy the body and wipe it’s esistance off the face of the earth so they can continue to milk money out of there members
either way, organized religion stands to make a foutune… I wonder if they well spend their riches on the sick and poor like Jesus was said to have done?
~~EK
David, I happened across your site after googling “MacBackup” and read your article on the “Book” Harddrive. Great Stuff – Then I saw the article on the discovery of Jesus’ body.
First of all full dislosure: I am a born again Christian. 23 years ago almost to the day, I was a cocaine addict sitting alone after being up all night for five years. My distain for Christianity at the time was probably on par with yours. Then as I was channel surfing I hit a channel where a man was saying “Hey Man, are you happy?” Well I may have been high, but I wasn’t happy. The next thing I heard was the same voice in my head that I’d been listening to for five years. “Forget this idiot, turn the channel and lets get crazy – YOU CAN’T CHANGE!”
A second later, before I could turn the channel, the guy on the TV said, “You see, You can’t change yourself”. I froze. “But I know someone who can – in fact he wants to make you a whole new creation” Pray with me right now, and Jesus will deliver you from whatever is afflicting you.
I did pray, and that morning, I was completely delivered from drug addiction.
Now back to your comments: Obviously someone has really offended you.
I doubt that you and I agree on much but the last thing I want as a Christian is to shut you up or persecute you or force my beliefs on you. That’s not at all all what you see when you look at the Jesus of the Bible. God never ever violates our personal will and choice. You may not like what the Bible says, but you have every right to reject it. And having spent three years in the Army, I would have gladly died to support your constitutional rights.
So if we in the “religious right” have come across to you as being the cold insensitive beasts that you describe, I apologize to you.
Thanks for listening.
Andrew
Welcome to Urban Semiotic Eelkat!
You make an interesting argument that religion can make money on this discovery either way! Now that gives us all something to deeply consider, thank you!
Thanks for your fine and considered comment, Andrew, and welcome to Urban Semiotic!
Yes, I find it offensive when my fundamentalist Commander-in-Chief invokes God in his irrational reasoning for war:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17347-2004Apr16.html
When Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson claim AIDS is God’s curse against Gays, I get offended:
http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/hatespeech/hate.html
I get offended when conservative religious fundamentalists like Rush Limbaugh make fun of the disabled for personal entertainment and private political gain:
http://urbansemiotic.com/2006/10/27/rush-of-the-oxycontin-moron/
UPDATE:
I discovered this article, “Jesus Found Dead in His Grave” disappeared from sight for several hours when it was made into a “Private” post by someone other than me.
This is the article URL for this post:
http://urbansemiotic.com/2007/02/25/jesus-found-dead-in-his-grave/
I sent the following email message to WordPress.com support for help on the matter:
I’ll let you know what happens — and if this post disappears from sight again soon or in the future — please let me know via our Email area.
Thank you!
David W. Boles
Publisher, Urban Semiotic
http://UrbanSemiotic.com
Fascinating. I just bought a book today by Sylvia Browne about the life of Jesus. It too mentions the idea that Jesus did not die, but emerged alive from the crucifixion and created his own family line. Ms Browne is a gnostic who endeavors to study Christianity and other religions with an open mind and using facts in evidence (okay, she’s also a world-renowned psychic, but you should not let that put you off. Ideas are ideas and you can pick and choose whatever resonates with you). I think you might find it interesting reading given your post.
I think you are brave to present this information this way. I can only imagine the hateful comments you’ve had to delete. And this from “loving Christians”. Jesus is surely cringing at the behavior of his followers these days.
Maybe we’ll get lucky and the Far Right will never find a “suitable” candidate to forward their agendas.
Thanks for the support anonymous and welcome to Urban Semiotic. Your support is valued and important!
UPDATE:
WordPress support told me random posts getting made “Private” is a system bug they are working on fixing.
How can you prove by DNA testing that it is the grave of Jesus? You’d either need some DNA to compare it to which you know is Jesus’, or with DNA from known descendants. And someone 2000 years ago is probably going to be related (to a greater or lessor degree) to almost everyone alive today.
There must be a major part of the story we don’t yet know, Ben! It will be fascinating to watch it all unfold and we can decide for ourselves what and who to believe or not.
There must be a major part of the story we don’t yet know, Ben! It will be fascinating to watch it all unfold and we can decide for ourselves what and who to believe or not.
Hello.
I am, in many ways, ignorant.
Especially when it comes to matters of religion and politics.
From this initial stance, please forgive or judge not too harshly, my opinion herein.
I am not overly concerned about whether Jesus was or was not resurrected.
I am more concerned about what Jesus taught.
I think he offered much good guidance – and fear, from my limited knowledge – that the Bible has done both mankind and Jesus – son of God or prophet – a great injustice.
Be His body found in a grave or be He resurrected, I hope His soul is peaceful.
– Solo xx
Hello.
I am, in many ways, ignorant.
Especially when it comes to matters of religion and politics.
From this initial stance, please forgive or judge not too harshly, my opinion herein.
I am not overly concerned about whether Jesus was or was not resurrected.
I am more concerned about what Jesus taught.
I think he offered much good guidance – and fear, from my limited knowledge – that the Bible has done both mankind and Jesus – son of God or prophet – a great injustice.
Be His body found in a grave or be He resurrected, I hope His soul is peaceful.
– Solo xx
I don’t even know what to say, this is disturbing news. I heard the report on the late news last night but didn’t get a chance to listen to the full report.
It almost feels like the world is over now–that the end has actually come. Though not the way Revelations has described. Indeed we are sinners. And yet we’ve been fooled (perhaps).
Now the question, and the responsibility to be held on whom for such a lie and devious manipulation? If a lie.
I don’t even know what to say, this is disturbing news. I heard the report on the late news last night but didn’t get a chance to listen to the full report.
It almost feels like the world is over now–that the end has actually come. Though not the way Revelations has described. Indeed we are sinners. And yet we’ve been fooled (perhaps).
Now the question, and the responsibility to be held on whom for such a lie and devious manipulation? If a lie.
Btw: I really enjoyed your writing style and reading this.
Btw: I really enjoyed your writing style and reading this.
Welcome to Urban Semiotic, Solo!
For those who truly believe in Christianity, the Resurrection is the defining moment. Without the Resurrection, without Jesus dying for our sins and raising to Heaven to make room for us before he returns to bring us home — the entire mythology around Jesus crumbles into ashes.
I agree His teachings and lessons of how lead a right life are good and important, but for True Believers, the lessons are not enough.
Welcome to Urban Semiotic, Solo!
For those who truly believe in Christianity, the Resurrection is the defining moment. Without the Resurrection, without Jesus dying for our sins and raising to Heaven to make room for us before he returns to bring us home — the entire mythology around Jesus crumbles into ashes.
I agree His teachings and lessons of how lead a right life are good and important, but for True Believers, the lessons are not enough.
It’s a pleasure to have you with us, ascreamingwriter, and welcome to Urban Semiotic!
Wowser! Now that’s a fascinating idea: The End of the World, the True Revelation that Begins The Last Days is the scientific proof that Jesus was a fraud and his story was a myth. Wild!
Thanks for the compliments! It’s terrific to have you with us!
It’s a pleasure to have you with us, ascreamingwriter, and welcome to Urban Semiotic!
Wowser! Now that’s a fascinating idea: The End of the World, the True Revelation that Begins The Last Days is the scientific proof that Jesus was a fraud and his story was a myth. Wild!
Thanks for the compliments! It’s terrific to have you with us!
UPDATE:
James Cameron and his research associate were on “The Today Show” this morning and they said, the three caskets together, the clustering of names together, and comparing the markings on the casket and the DNA of each person in the casket confirms they were all related and that Jesus was one of dead.
They went on to claim a Probability Study done by mathematicians beyond their inner circle confirmed that the probability that this was not Jesus and his family was 2 million to 1 — or framed another way — the mathematicians said it is 99% certain that the family tomb is Jesus and his family.
James Cameron will have a fuller press conference in an hour.
UPDATE:
James Cameron and his research associate were on “The Today Show” this morning and they said, the three caskets together, the clustering of names together, and comparing the markings on the casket and the DNA of each person in the casket confirms they were all related and that Jesus was one of dead.
They went on to claim a Probability Study done by mathematicians beyond their inner circle confirmed that the probability that this was not Jesus and his family was 2 million to 1 — or framed another way — the mathematicians said it is 99% certain that the family tomb is Jesus and his family.
James Cameron will have a fuller press conference in an hour.
YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!! Think what you want but Jesus rose from the dead. This is just something to get attention.
Science and technology will tell us the facts, teenfg, but the belief belongs solely to you and no one can take that away from you without your direct consent.
Welcome to Urban Semiotic!
Hi Everyone:
There have been some very strong comments made so I wanted to just give my little tidbit. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, and it’s my choice to believe. I truly believe that faith is a choice, and everyone has a right to believe or not to believe.
I also don’t believe in dictating or putting my beliefs on the entire country or anyone else for that matter. I “choose” to live a certain way because of my choice to follow Christ and His teachings, thus, I don’t expect others to follow those teachings if they have not chosen to believe in Jesus. It’s just that simple.
Lastly, I am also not a participant in institutionalized or organized religion. I choose to follow Jesus in a more simple way of being in relationship with just a few other families in my immediate community. It’s a simple life and a simple walk. So please don’t draw a conclusion about what it means to be a Christian by what you see or hear in the media, or even on Christian television for that matter. Some things are a matter of tradition and religion and pride and arrogance and representative of the many flaws of man. Some things that are supposedly representative of Christianity are not really Christianity at all.
It sounds like some of you are truly seeking for truth – I pray that you find it.
Thanks for the fine comment, Dee Dee, and welcome to Urban Semiotic!
If the Resurrection of Christ turns out to be more myth than fact, how will that affect your faith and your ascent into Heaven?
Hi David:
You are a very interesting man :-), and I am glad that you have the freedom to explore this topic. Any “scientific” information found would not at all affect my choice to believe. As I stated earlier, faith is definitely a choice. If it were based upon scientific findings, I’d be tossed like a ship in the wind – believing today, and not believing tomorrow. Some might consider this to be naivity, and I can understand that thought. Faith in Christ is not something that can be understood intellectually. I believe that is what Andrew was saying. For me, it’s like Andrew said, it’s a knowing and it’s a changed life that makes me sure of what I know. The best to you David.
Thanks for the follow-up comment, Dee Dee, and have a lovely day!
Hi Dee Dee Smith,
I am definitely a believer, I always have been. Please don’t get that wrong. I certainly understand and know the scripture to say that we will be tested in our faith, that others will claim to have evidence, among other verses.
However, I find it incredibly sad that it wasn’t news we’ve been waiting for thousands of years to hear, such as evidence found that follows scriptures.
In other words, I believe in God. But what if he is not the man we’ve been told? What if, for instance, the Catholic church for example (could be any church, I’m just using this one as an example; I come from protestant and catholic background) has manipulated the truths? Changed scripture for the benefit of people joining and following their church and religion? What if Jesus WAS JUST A MAN, one of their own, and the actual Jesus was indeed someone else, that someone being a man who never married or had children as we have been told, and as scriptures tell us? What if Jesus, the Jesus found noted today, was just an imposter hired by the church to travel and teach the lands and assume Jesus’ identity? And as for Mary M and their son, what if that indeed was hidden, for it would have to be or Jesus wouldn’t have looked as Holy for the Catholic church to plant their seeds and scriptures of their own?
Deep thoughts, a fragile topic none the less. Still, I believe. I’d dare not.
I DO believe that whoever is responsible, wherever the lies are hidden, the truth will come out.
It always does. And I’m a firm believer, and know, that.
On another note:
Thanks David for your gesture of welcome.
Thanks for that great comment, ascreamingwriter!
“The truth, when crushed to the ground, shall rise again.”
As a born again Christian, I am more than mildly curious about something: do you expect that this will shake our faith and cause us to turn our backs on what we believe?
Seriously, from the post on your blog, it would seem, though I may be wrong, that you believe this “revelation” will cause believers to question the validity of the Bible, of God, and of Christ.
Thanks for time.
Julia
Welcome to Urban Semiotic, Julia!
I have no idea what effect the loss of The Resurrection would have on True Believers — and I honestly don’t care one way or the other — but I think it would be a sobering of the myth for the rest of us who were suspicious all along.
There are those who Truly Believe the earth was created by aliens — and there’s no shaking them from those tenets of faith despite the evidence of Evolution, Carbon Dating and the fossil record.
I highly agree with what Dee Dee said!
John 20 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
John 20
The Empty Tomb
1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”
3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus’ head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
Please do not make assumptions! Once again believe what you want to but Jesus has risen from the dead! The Bible is truth do not question it!!! We disagree with almost EVERYTHING that the Davinci Code says.
I still believe in the resurection of Jesus. The DNA is probably in his family, but not his specifically. In doing genealogy research, I have found many nephews given the same name as their uncles. This particular Jesus must have had his brothers and sisters giving their kids his name “Jesus”. Just a thought. It was common that first names were handed down in a family along with the last names. Joseph Jr. of Joseph Sr. probably gave his son the name Joseph who named his own son after his uncle, Jesus. The first name Mary ran rampant during that time. Names for women were unimaginative. Personally, I have five generations of “johns” in America when my surname was just starting here.
As a side note, without faith in God, there is no heaven for anyone. Faith is not something that can ever be conclusively proved. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be called faith.
I still believe in the resurection of Jesus. The DNA is probably in his family, but not his specifically. In doing genealogy research, I have found many nephews given the same name as their uncles. This particular Jesus must have had his brothers and sisters giving their kids his name “Jesus”. Just a thought. It was common that first names were handed down in a family along with the last names. Joseph Jr. of Joseph Sr. probably gave his son the name Joseph who named his own son after his uncle, Jesus. The first name Mary ran rampant during that time. Names for women were unimaginative. Personally, I have five generations of “johns” in America when my surname was just starting here.
As a side note, without faith in God, there is no heaven for anyone. Faith is not something that can ever be conclusively proved. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be called faith.
Also, sorry to post again, some gnostic Christians (almost wiped out in medevial times) believe that he will return for his body. But, they still believe in the salvation that Jesus offers them.
Also, sorry to post again, some gnostic Christians (almost wiped out in medevial times) believe that he will return for his body. But, they still believe in the salvation that Jesus offers them.
Jesus, what have you done? From messiah to stage attraction. Isn’t it written somewhere that Jesus was ressurected a couple of months after he died? If that is true, wouldn’t he still be alive today? How can one group believe him to be the messiah? Shouldn’t all groups agree on that to make it true?
See, this is what society does. Religion used to be spiritual. Now it is just marketing.
Jesus, what have you done? From messiah to stage attraction. Isn’t it written somewhere that Jesus was ressurected a couple of months after he died? If that is true, wouldn’t he still be alive today? How can one group believe him to be the messiah? Shouldn’t all groups agree on that to make it true?
See, this is what society does. Religion used to be spiritual. Now it is just marketing.
Sara said “Faith is not something that can ever be conclusively proved. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be called faith.”
I was thinking about posting something along these lines, but you beat me to it!
In a post on about this particular blog post, someone mentioned “blind faith”. To me, all faith is blind and, as humans, we put our faith in many things every day. One website (and not a Christian one at that) says faith is belief, trust, or confidence, not necessarily based on logic, facts, reason, or empirical data . . .
To say one has “blind faith” is really redundant as faith is already blind in that it is based, as stated above, not necessarily on logic, facts, reason, or data.
Faith and Blind Faith are, indeed, different concepts.
You have Blind Faith by suspending belief in facts, true understanding or appropriate discrimination.
You have Faith in things and objects and people.
Thank you to everyone for a stimulating conversation on this difficult matter!
The dialogue is beginning to turn in circles now and get repetitive and that’s when it’s time to close our commentary and move on to the next topic of the moment.
UPDATE:
Due to popular demand, I am re-opening the comments for this article with the following caveat: Only comments that are interesting to me and intellectually pleasing to the open-minded middle core will be published.
I will heavily moderate comments on this article from here on out with that caveat in mind.
I will not allow what has been an important and fruitful conversation to degrade into “me too” quotes and posting Bible verses and emotional testimony about the goodness of the Savior.
I direct you to our Comments Policy for more information:
http://urbansemiotic.com/comments-policy/
I may not be able to respond to every single comment posted from here on out — as is my usual want here — due to the pressing demands of other matters.
I do read and enjoy every published comment.
Thank you!
Hi david
The truth is, this is the only article (really) that made me read all the comments from top to bottom and from what’s going on here, its a great discussion and exchange of thoughts and ideas.
My personal belief is that, religion and science should compliment and travel together. Not try to disprove one or the other. But then, when it comes to beliefs and faith, I throw them back to the rightful owner – each and individual human being.
And along the comments, i think somebody is hardly trying to force one to believe what he/she believes. I hope you know who that is, and you can handle it well 🙂
Interesting read.
Thanks for the comment, dimaks, and welcome to Urban Semiotic!
I agree the comments here are dynamic and interesting and helpful in giving a frame of understanding to a difficult topic.
However, when the comments waiting for moderation begin to degrade with repetition in a conjoined effort to drown out the good voices with gang radicalism and hatred, I get weary of the noise but I won’t be defeated by it — they just won’t be able to find voice here any longer and when you visit their personal websites you immediately see their vested interest in repressing our intellectual conversation here in favor of blindly following what has come before there.
David, the man with a stand 🙂
David, the man with a stand 🙂
Ha! We try to stand for the right things, dimaks, but people are always eager and willing to try to tip you over!
Ha! We try to stand for the right things, dimaks, but people are always eager and willing to try to tip you over!
This is fascinating. I took a look at the original blog and was surprised by how much debate is going on.
I’m an agnostic but admit I am curious to know how how the DNA thing works?
I’ve been studying the work of David Hume for a university course. He questioned notions such as “the soul” and “faith” and was reviled by public and scholars alike. I can’t help but note how little the world has really changed since then when it comes down to arguments of faith.
Great post, and great commentary, thanks for giving me more to think about.
This is fascinating. I took a look at the original blog and was surprised by how much debate is going on.
I’m an agnostic but admit I am curious to know how how the DNA thing works?
I’ve been studying the work of David Hume for a university course. He questioned notions such as “the soul” and “faith” and was reviled by public and scholars alike. I can’t help but note how little the world has really changed since then when it comes down to arguments of faith.
Great post, and great commentary, thanks for giving me more to think about.
Hi there I stumbled across this article, first I have to say that this the first I heard of this new discovery, I am a christian, and have a question about how the DNA proves it was Jesus? Second I really like your writing style and have to say I was turned off by the story as my convictions and beliefs tell me that what they discovered is false. But I was still very drawn in by your thoughts and comments through out. Well if you have any information on the DNA stuff, Let me know – Thanks
Lee –
Hi there I stumbled across this article, first I have to say that this the first I heard of this new discovery, I am a christian, and have a question about how the DNA proves it was Jesus? Second I really like your writing style and have to say I was turned off by the story as my convictions and beliefs tell me that what they discovered is false. But I was still very drawn in by your thoughts and comments through out. Well if you have any information on the DNA stuff, Let me know – Thanks
Lee –
Welcome to Urban Semiotic, puddlejumper!
Thanks for the interesting comment and the kind support.
I’m sure the DNA stuff will be revealed in the documentary, but here’s a tidbit:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/jesus_s_burial;_ylt=Ajt8TEGbt_Rl7w17fGx1JA1.KcMA
Welcome to Urban Semiotic, puddlejumper!
Thanks for the interesting comment and the kind support.
I’m sure the DNA stuff will be revealed in the documentary, but here’s a tidbit:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/jesus_s_burial;_ylt=Ajt8TEGbt_Rl7w17fGx1JA1.KcMA
Here’s the official website for the documentary:
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tomb/tomb.html?dcitc=w99-502-ah-1024
Here’s the official website for the documentary:
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tomb/tomb.html?dcitc=w99-502-ah-1024
Mother Of Stupids is Always Pregnant. The don’t forget that Cameron wants to make money. Its Show Biz and the show must go on, at any cost.
Mother Of Stupids is Always Pregnant. The don’t forget that Cameron wants to make money. Its Show Biz and the show must go on, at any cost.
I guess I didn’t deserve all those childhood slaps by my best friend’s devout Catholic mom for taking Jesus’s name in vain!
Hmm, I’m not religious but this news sort of depresses me. Who will punish me for being a bad girl? Hmm.
I am looking forward to sitting back and watching this unfold.
I’d rather live through the spirit of religion than religion itself.
I guess I didn’t deserve all those childhood slaps by my best friend’s devout Catholic mom for taking Jesus’s name in vain!
Hmm, I’m not religious but this news sort of depresses me. Who will punish me for being a bad girl? Hmm.
I am looking forward to sitting back and watching this unfold.
I’d rather live through the spirit of religion than religion itself.
Hi, interesting site you have. 🙂 Great post. Very intriguing.
One quick question. In your post, it said:They were: Jesua, son of Joseph, Mary, Mary, Mathew, Jofa and Judah, son of Jesua.But when I clicked on the last link (The Discovery Channel one), the names are different: Maria (Mary), Matthew, Mariamne (Mary Magdalene), Jesus, Judah, Yose, and James. I’m just confused— err, I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t getting the names mixed up by accident. I mean, I’m assuming that Yose & Jofa are the same names, right? & how come James isn’t in the list?
Well, like I said, GREAT POST. 😀 Have a good one!
gee, my faith is rocked. guess i better get on with my life now and quit lying to myself…
as a Christian, I’m sorry most of us have been intolerant jerks and snobs that don’t resemble life of the guy you claim is dead. if we did, maybe people wouldn’t have to try and dig up boxes to prove to us we’re wrong.
sorry, this doesn’t rattle my faith in the least. you know why? Christianity is a relationship with God. it may seems goofy to you, but I know God in the person of Jesus. you can jump up and down and say it isn’t real, but when something is already more real to me then my name, it doesn’t matter what anybody supportively thinks he has proven.
Many tombs found in the vicinity of the heavily-hyped tomb contain names found in the tomb of particular interest, as has been widely reported. There are not yet scholarly, peer-reviewed papers on the find. Those who require ostensibly scientific proof right away aren’t establishing themselves as credible and authoritative.
It’s the same old situation: Science will neither prove nor disprove whether there is sufficient basis for religious faith.
marizen —
Welcome to Urban Semiotic and I appreciate your questions and wondering very much.
The names are confusing. Some reports use the old names, the translated, names, etc.
The key to the names and DNA is, as I understand the argument, Mary Magdalene. Her name is so unique that it can only be she in the casket. Then the son in the other casket — Judah –- is confirmed related to her by blood as her son via DNA testing. Then we move to the man in the box who, through DNA testing, is also the father of Mary Magdalene’s son — and he happens to named Jesus (aka Jesua) with special casket indicators that he was not one of the many Jesuses running around out there at that time in antiquity.
Then you have to consider families were buried together back then as one and you being to see how the condition of the pattern becomes ripe for statistical analysis.
Now you have to wonder: How man Jesuses would have been with THAT Mary Magdalene and also fathered a son with her?
That’s where we are right now in our scientific wonderment.
marizen —
Welcome to Urban Semiotic and I appreciate your questions and wondering very much.
The names are confusing. Some reports use the old names, the translated, names, etc.
The key to the names and DNA is, as I understand the argument, Mary Magdalene. Her name is so unique that it can only be she in the casket. Then the son in the other casket — Judah –- is confirmed related to her by blood as her son via DNA testing. Then we move to the man in the box who, through DNA testing, is also the father of Mary Magdalene’s son — and he happens to named Jesus (aka Jesua) with special casket indicators that he was not one of the many Jesuses running around out there at that time in antiquity.
Then you have to consider families were buried together back then as one and you being to see how the condition of the pattern becomes ripe for statistical analysis.
Now you have to wonder: How man Jesuses would have been with THAT Mary Magdalene and also fathered a son with her?
That’s where we are right now in our scientific wonderment.
“Simcha Jacobovici” – a Canadian JEWISH producer – my theory – someone is still
trying to crucify MY Lord. Won’t work for me. It’s called “FAITH”. This is a money seeking venture (and of course if they could crucify Jesus again it would probably be
very satisfying to them personally) – that’s just another theory I have.
I have nothing against Jewish people. Do not misunderstand. I simply cannot help but
try to come to the defense of one who was already crucified for us!
“Simcha Jacobovici” – a Canadian JEWISH producer – my theory – someone is still
trying to crucify MY Lord. Won’t work for me. It’s called “FAITH”. This is a money seeking venture (and of course if they could crucify Jesus again it would probably be
very satisfying to them personally) – that’s just another theory I have.
I have nothing against Jewish people. Do not misunderstand. I simply cannot help but
try to come to the defense of one who was already crucified for us!
Maybe the story of Jesus was to be like a parable of sorts to remind us all that it doesn’t matter what background we come from, we are all worthy of love and happiness.
This might have been the arrival he spoke of too. He said he’d come again. Now it’s time to assess what is what and continue on.
Everything happens for a reason and everything happens when it happens for a reason as well.
Radical Fundamentalism is sad but those Christians who try to force their beleifs on others and tell non-Christians that they’re going to hell are obviously deceived in the whole message of the Bible. They have some sort of alternate agenda. Christians, “little Christs”, are supposed to do just that…be like Jesus. Jesus didn’t go around condemning others. Someone like Mother Theresa is a model Christian and if all Christians could see that and do their best to be like her, like Jesus, then the world would have a much better veiw of Christianity. The bible is not historical context and it’s supposed to be taken literally. The writings are meaningful and contain important answers to how one should relate and act in everyday life. It’s sad that the truely good Christians aren’t heard from since they silently and humbly do the will of God. Same thing with Muslims, there are fundamentalist Muslims that are filled with hate and anger. That’s not the teaching of the Quar’an. Those are the ones who are out there acting out and making a name for the Muslim community. Honestly, I don’t beleive this story has any credentials, otherwise it would be in the newspaper or just plain in the news, period. But even if Jesus were to be found, it wouldn’t destroy the teachings of true selflessness and humility. If his body was found then good–One of the most reverenced teachings is how human Jesus really was– that God humbled himself to walk like one of us on earth. In this way we can much better relate with him. He’s been there, he knows the sufferings and trials that each human being goes through. He suffers temptation, also. The New Testament is about his journey and his ministry to others… it’s not neccessarily a biography.
I guess that people will have to fall back on the bunny to get true meaning from Easter.
Wow, very interesting story for sure. This really could change the face of religion as we know it. That is, if it’s proven to be 100% true. Otherwise, if there’s even a 1% chance of it being false, not a single devout Christian will believe it.
But, then again, there never really was 100% proof of anything God related ever happening. Selective beliefs, I suppose.
The Duck Has Spoken.
It just shows that a normal man can make a big difference in the world one man can chage everything and not a super human being. One person can make a difference and save the world.They do not have to be a super human.We or people do not have to lose our faith because of this.Finding jesus’s bones doesnt mean that the bible is no longer true.Things were worded differently then.It was there way of speaking. So i still have my faith. I just think that you dont have to be superman or have a special power i think a regular person can save the world.A person like you or me.Maybe that is the message.Love one another… I mean isnt that what we learned from him and keep learning from him.
The social ramifications of the findings are deep. However, the ramifications to Christians is nominal. I don’t ignore scientific facts, just view them through a different lens. For example, evolution could have certainly happened – I just believe God started it and how God choses to do/create something isn’t my worry, just that God did.
I also want to make a clarification on some comments about Christians. I do NOT subscribe to the Fundamentalist camp. My blog is actually dedicated to moderate Christian theology and thought. Fundamentalists / “The Christian Right” (which I like to say is neither Christian nor right) has messed up Christianity by doing exactly what you (and I) accuse them of – running people off from Christ due to actions and forcing their beliefs on others. This is even done through politics. Take a look at those that act this way, you’ll see one thing in common – a desire for power. People who pursue power are not following Jesus’s life- the Jesus who I believe conquored death.
The social ramifications of the findings are deep. However, the ramifications to Christians is nominal. I don’t ignore scientific facts, just view them through a different lens. For example, evolution could have certainly happened – I just believe God started it and how God choses to do/create something isn’t my worry, just that God did.
I also want to make a clarification on some comments about Christians. I do NOT subscribe to the Fundamentalist camp. My blog is actually dedicated to moderate Christian theology and thought. Fundamentalists / “The Christian Right” (which I like to say is neither Christian nor right) has messed up Christianity by doing exactly what you (and I) accuse them of – running people off from Christ due to actions and forcing their beliefs on others. This is even done through politics. Take a look at those that act this way, you’ll see one thing in common – a desire for power. People who pursue power are not following Jesus’s life- the Jesus who I believe conquored death.
I don’t understand why this discovery (if it really is Jesus) means “the end of Christianity.” If Jesus comes back, I don’t think he’s going to use a 2,000 year old body. He’d probably be able to fashion himself a nice new body- he’s the son of God, afterall.
Why does finding a human shell (it’s just the body, not the spirit) promote atheism? I would think it would promote the belief that he actually existed. I’m not being critical, I’m just confused.
I realize this is the 1,204th comment, and I haven’t read them all yet, so I apologize if I’m being redundant.
….and why does “resurrection” mean that his body itself has to have been resurrected? I think “resurrection” means that Jesus continued to live, but not necessarily his body. Faith is about going beyond the body- For Christians, I believe Jesus is resurrected in our hearts and in the earth. He doesn’t have to be a risen physical body that was once clinically dead. Those are human terms.
I am a Christian, but I am also a far-left liberal. I believe God loves everyone, and that the Bible has been copied to many times to be the literal truth anymore, and should be used to provide direction, not to divide people over technicalities.
I’m probably in the minority about that one though.
I truly believe in Jesus,somehow its strange that DNA of Jesus was taken, do we have a proof that our science does have DNA of Mary or Joseph?….Bible clearly talks about false jesuses that will be brough in this world, somehow its strange then that Jesus as beibg a mortal person could resurrect dead people?…history clearly shows that such a Jesus was and did miracles that Israle was not facing. I am more positively sure that what you found is a proof of satan’s plan, like the Leonardo’s code. For me Jesus is Lord, and whatever scientists could find, will be not a proof for the true believers!
God bless you all!
Marchel
R. Moldova
OK, I’m not a Christian — so I probably don’t get it — but I have schooled in a Christian convent school, and there’s one thing that puzzles me deeply. What’s the big deal if Christ was a mortal man, and if he wasn’t resurrected? What really matters is what he taught, and the principles that one believes in.
In fact, in this age of science, technology, and reason … isn’t it more reasonable to assume that the resurrection theory is just an exaggeration that got amplified over several years?
God is energy.
Everything is energy.
We all have it. It’s how we use it that counts.
UPDATE:
Some of you are wondering about the importance of the body in the notion of Resurrection.
The Catholic Church, as one example, is centered on the actual body ascending into Heaven. If there’s a body left behind, then the miracle is destroyed:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Resurrection_of_the_Body.asp
For Catholics, Jesus’ body in a casket is not a Resurrection and the miracle of the rising is destroyed.
UPDATE:
Some of you are wondering about the importance of the body in the notion of Resurrection.
The Catholic Church, as one example, is centered on the actual body ascending into Heaven. If there’s a body left behind, then the miracle is destroyed:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Resurrection_of_the_Body.asp
For Catholics, Jesus’ body in a casket is not a Resurrection and the miracle of the rising is destroyed.
Laura —
You remind me of a recent article I wrote: Translating God.
http://urbansemiotic.com/2007/01/30/translating-god/
Just to clarify,
“The key to the names and DNA is, as I understand the argument, Mary Magdalene. Her name is so unique that it can only be she in the casket.”
The articles said that was Mary, Mary, not Mary Magdalene. So it could be any Mary.
And, Amos Kloner, an ARCHAEOLOGIST, (the one who supervised the excavations in that grave), said that all the evidence is FALSE.
And if you want to know the SCIENTIFIC MANNERS of the Jacobovici-Cameron COMBO, just watch their other SCIENTIFIC documentary that PROVES EXODUS: EXODUS DECODED… it is funny 😉
CJBS
Here’s an explanation of the names:
The rest of the article deals with the DNA.
There have been so many comments here, too many to address individually. I’ll try to sum it up with these points:
1. For those of you who saying Jesus didn’t condemn people, you’re right. BUT READ YOUR BIBLE. There are many instances of Him saying things such as, “better to lose your [eye, hand] than your soul in the fires of hell.” Maybe that’s not condemnation, but it sure is a warning.
2. For those of you who think He was just a good teacher only, READ YOUR BIBLE. He claimed to be God. So either that “good teacher” is lying or crazy, or He’s God!
3. For those of you who think this tomb is for Jesus and his family, let’s think about this logically. We’re to assume first of all that the Bible is accurate in names of people (Jesus, Mary, Joseph), but not accurate in events like the Resurrection. OR the fact that they lived in Galilee. OR the fact that a carpenter couldn’t afford an elaborate tomb like that. OR the fact that these names were incredibly common at this time. (And if you replace Jesus with Joshua, they are just as common today!) And don’t you need to compare one DNA sample to another to say they are the same person.
This is so ridiculous I’m not even sure why I’m addressing it.
I haven’t read the rest of the comments due to lack of time and I should be writing my thesis instead … but …
My guess is that a wide-spread revolt could happen by Christians … after all, the kindness and tolerance to all mankind has been based on Christian rules … it could all return to madness and mayhem in order to protect number one. WW3 could possibly ensue … without rules and boundaries and reasons for some, all hell could break loose.
Luckily I’ve been autonomous and still been practising good will to all mankind for all my 38 years, bar six of them as a teenager when I was a Christian.
May I not be shot down for all this.
…… another interesting thought that Mary Magdelene was ‘master’ .. because she was a dominatrix in her profession?????? .. maybe she was the main breadwinner and her boosted earnings brought about the burial crypt status for her family.
The bible left out the 33 years of Jesus’ life for a good reason – he was a man of flesh afterall. History tells us that ‘royalty’ doesn’t ensure a pure son devoid of sin no matter to how good a king he might one day be.
…… another interesting thought that Mary Magdelene was ‘master’ .. because she was a dominatrix in her profession?????? .. maybe she was the main breadwinner and her boosted earnings brought about the burial crypt status for her family.
The bible left out the 33 years of Jesus’ life for a good reason – he was a man of flesh afterall. History tells us that ‘royalty’ doesn’t ensure a pure son devoid of sin no matter to how good a king he might one day be.
The word of God was never promised to be indisputable, but rather based on faith. Christians have come under fire ever since science has tried to say the Earth is 4-5 billion years old versus Christian belief that when man was created within the 7 days of creation he was given a 7000 year plan. God will no longer bend over bavckwards to sell us the concept of Jesus Christ, but on the other hand says “Blessed are those who believe without seeing” What more can a superior being do than give up his only Son to die in our place? Why would He follow up with miraculous acts and conviencing proof of who Christ was? If we cannot accept the word of God (the Bible) as the basis of our belief and that it was indeed molded by Gods seeds into the minds of select men to be the hands and labor of Gods will, then we have lost this battle centuries ago and do not need science to undermine what our belief as self evident and true. Remember, the greatest thing Satan ever did on his behalf was play out in the minds of man that he does not exist. Satans mission is not to win souls (he already has us, for God assured us that death was the penalty for the original sin) His mission is to keep us away from salvation and to deny the gift of Gods sacrifice. Do not be swayed by these lies and attacks on Christianity, maintain faith and remember…”All secret things will be revealed by the father to us in the end.” Praise God and let us glorify the sacrifice his son Jesus did for us. I have eternal life through Jesus Christ.
The word of God was never promised to be indisputable, but rather based on faith. Christians have come under fire ever since science has tried to say the Earth is 4-5 billion years old versus Christian belief that when man was created within the 7 days of creation he was given a 7000 year plan. God will no longer bend over bavckwards to sell us the concept of Jesus Christ, but on the other hand says “Blessed are those who believe without seeing” What more can a superior being do than give up his only Son to die in our place? Why would He follow up with miraculous acts and conviencing proof of who Christ was? If we cannot accept the word of God (the Bible) as the basis of our belief and that it was indeed molded by Gods seeds into the minds of select men to be the hands and labor of Gods will, then we have lost this battle centuries ago and do not need science to undermine what our belief as self evident and true. Remember, the greatest thing Satan ever did on his behalf was play out in the minds of man that he does not exist. Satans mission is not to win souls (he already has us, for God assured us that death was the penalty for the original sin) His mission is to keep us away from salvation and to deny the gift of Gods sacrifice. Do not be swayed by these lies and attacks on Christianity, maintain faith and remember…”All secret things will be revealed by the father to us in the end.” Praise God and let us glorify the sacrifice his son Jesus did for us. I have eternal life through Jesus Christ.
rain!
I’m not answering that one! 😀
I’m in enough trouble already today!
rain!
I’m not answering that one! 😀
I’m in enough trouble already today!
Well whether you believe or don’t believe is your own individual faith.
When it comes to true Christians, thats all that you have….faith. So whether the scientists want to spend their days proving the Christians wrong is their problem. As a practicing Christian I win regardless. If there is a God and an afterlife through HIM (Jesus), well…. I win! If there isnt an afterlife and we all just “re-emerge” or whatever the non-Believers believe, then I guess I win also. So to me the stakes are a little higher if I don’t believe.
And if anyone has such a struggle with believing in God or not, then they really aren’t a true Believer. Cause if the love is in your heart (for God), the same as you would love your child, then its not a daunting task to Believe.
So I say let them prove us wrong, they are thinking only with the brain and not the Spirit. You cant go into a battle of spiritual warfare by only using your scientific mind.
Rob V., I LOVE your comment.
Bless
Well whether you believe or don’t believe is your own individual faith.
When it comes to true Christians, thats all that you have….faith. So whether the scientists want to spend their days proving the Christians wrong is their problem. As a practicing Christian I win regardless. If there is a God and an afterlife through HIM (Jesus), well…. I win! If there isnt an afterlife and we all just “re-emerge” or whatever the non-Believers believe, then I guess I win also. So to me the stakes are a little higher if I don’t believe.
And if anyone has such a struggle with believing in God or not, then they really aren’t a true Believer. Cause if the love is in your heart (for God), the same as you would love your child, then its not a daunting task to Believe.
So I say let them prove us wrong, they are thinking only with the brain and not the Spirit. You cant go into a battle of spiritual warfare by only using your scientific mind.
Rob V., I LOVE your comment.
Bless
maybe our (and Christians of ancient times) mistake was in literally interpreting “resurrection”. in Islam, they don’t believe that Jesus was resurrected, that he escaped persecution by the grace of God – this was a 2nd breath of life, to escape death.
or maybe the caskets are simply hocus-pocus.
we gotta wait to see how this plays out.
maybe our (and Christians of ancient times) mistake was in literally interpreting “resurrection”. in Islam, they don’t believe that Jesus was resurrected, that he escaped persecution by the grace of God – this was a 2nd breath of life, to escape death.
or maybe the caskets are simply hocus-pocus.
we gotta wait to see how this plays out.
Some of the audience to this post might be surprised to learn that there is a body of Christian scholars and theologians, sometimes referred to as the “demythologizers”, who have made it their business to strip away as many of the mythological elements of the Jesus story as possible.
One of their key points is that ALL of the source documents for the life of Jesus, both extant and reconstructed, are essentially “preaching” documents intended to serve converts to “The Way” and attract new ones. Few of the stories and words of Jesus can be reliably tracked all the way back to Jes(h)ua son of Joseph, “of Nazareth”. Most, including the majority of the claims of divine sonship in the Gospel of John, represent interpretations by, and for, the authors of these books, all of whom lived and wrote at least two decades after the presumed execution of “Jesus”.
I write “presumed”, because one of the discoveries of the “demythologizers” is that, unlike most of the other elements of the New Testament, the Passion Narrative is almost completely assembled from quotations from the Old Testament, particularly “prooftexts” drawn from the Greek (Septuagint) version of Psalms and Isaiah. This observation, coupled with the apparent absence of a passion narrative from the reconstructed Signs Gospel, a hypothetical precursor to John, opens the question whether the Passion was a real event or a metaphorical one, composed to explain to skeptical audiences within Jesus’s Judaism how it was that the miracle-working Messiah of the Signs Gospel could have died (possibly shamefully, or even in a totally ordinary fashion) without accomplishing the messianic task of achieving the independence of Judah from the Romans. In other words, Mel, there was no “Passion of the Christ”.
Under these circumstances, the postulated “family of Jesus” is certainly by no means impossible historically, though I remain skeptical that the remains of the actual Jesus family have been found. Too much is being made of too little evidence, especially in the coincidental naming.
I submit, moreover, that the leaders of “The Way”, once the Passion Narrative had been drafted and accepted into the movement (as it was by the time that the Gospel of Mark is said to have first appeared, around twenty years after Jesus’s death, or ca. 50 CE), would have had every incentive to conceal any evidence about Jesus that contradicted the “death and resurrection” account(s). Including the verum corpus. Making it highly unlikely, to me, that the bodies, which I presume once existed, would ever be found.
The central message of what the “demythologizers” (and other Christians) suggest is the real Jesus – a 1st century itinerant preacher, and rather obviously a charismatic one – is “Love God, love your neighbor”. Which is consistent with an interpretation of Jesus as a prophet, “a” (not THE) son of God. Just like Muhammad …
The demythologizers hang out at a place called the Westar Institute (www.westarinstitute.org). Their publication arm is Polebridge Press. I have found their 1994 volume The Complete Gospels to be fascinating reading – although not in the “potboiler novel” sense.
Some of the audience to this post might be surprised to learn that there is a body of Christian scholars and theologians, sometimes referred to as the “demythologizers”, who have made it their business to strip away as many of the mythological elements of the Jesus story as possible.
One of their key points is that ALL of the source documents for the life of Jesus, both extant and reconstructed, are essentially “preaching” documents intended to serve converts to “The Way” and attract new ones. Few of the stories and words of Jesus can be reliably tracked all the way back to Jes(h)ua son of Joseph, “of Nazareth”. Most, including the majority of the claims of divine sonship in the Gospel of John, represent interpretations by, and for, the authors of these books, all of whom lived and wrote at least two decades after the presumed execution of “Jesus”.
I write “presumed”, because one of the discoveries of the “demythologizers” is that, unlike most of the other elements of the New Testament, the Passion Narrative is almost completely assembled from quotations from the Old Testament, particularly “prooftexts” drawn from the Greek (Septuagint) version of Psalms and Isaiah. This observation, coupled with the apparent absence of a passion narrative from the reconstructed Signs Gospel, a hypothetical precursor to John, opens the question whether the Passion was a real event or a metaphorical one, composed to explain to skeptical audiences within Jesus’s Judaism how it was that the miracle-working Messiah of the Signs Gospel could have died (possibly shamefully, or even in a totally ordinary fashion) without accomplishing the messianic task of achieving the independence of Judah from the Romans. In other words, Mel, there was no “Passion of the Christ”.
Under these circumstances, the postulated “family of Jesus” is certainly by no means impossible historically, though I remain skeptical that the remains of the actual Jesus family have been found. Too much is being made of too little evidence, especially in the coincidental naming.
I submit, moreover, that the leaders of “The Way”, once the Passion Narrative had been drafted and accepted into the movement (as it was by the time that the Gospel of Mark is said to have first appeared, around twenty years after Jesus’s death, or ca. 50 CE), would have had every incentive to conceal any evidence about Jesus that contradicted the “death and resurrection” account(s). Including the verum corpus. Making it highly unlikely, to me, that the bodies, which I presume once existed, would ever be found.
The central message of what the “demythologizers” (and other Christians) suggest is the real Jesus – a 1st century itinerant preacher, and rather obviously a charismatic one – is “Love God, love your neighbor”. Which is consistent with an interpretation of Jesus as a prophet, “a” (not THE) son of God. Just like Muhammad …
The demythologizers hang out at a place called the Westar Institute (www.westarinstitute.org). Their publication arm is Polebridge Press. I have found their 1994 volume The Complete Gospels to be fascinating reading – although not in the “potboiler novel” sense.
Funny, the only thing the DNA tests will prove is that the people in the tomb were related. Nothing more, nothing less.
Hmmm…. wat does this mean?
how can you verify its JESUS?
[….Wordpress neighbor David Boles had some thoughts on the matter….]
Interestingly, there are many skeptics about the “find,” and not just Christians. Also interesting are the voices that appear to be hoping this tomb is real, which were the same voices (more or less) that were demanding that the Ossuary of James was a forgery. (It apparently was a forgery, but the comical part to me is the emotive reaction from those wishing to just put a “nail in the coffin” of Christianity.)
Furthermore, I’m just as interested in what might be said by the many who claim Jesus to have been a legend, based on the apparent lack of (credible) mention from Josephus and other historians of the day. At the end of the day, I suspect most people won’t change much of what they believe, regardless of what science says. True Skeptics ™ will suggest that the science is bad if this somehow proved something distasteful, and True Believers ™ will do the same.
People on both sides have long since stopped searching for truth, much the same as the Anthropogenic Global Warming debate, Mac vs. PC, Conservative vs. Liberal. It’s just so much easier to slap labels on the opposing side instead of searching for the truth. 🙂 – Tim
“I understand this revolt against the sanctity of the core of Christianity is a direct response to the rise of Christian Fundamentalism in America……”
This revolt has been going on for centuries.
Do you still use carbon dating in your arguments against Christianity and God? Even evolutionary scientists will tell you how unreliable that is. Most quit using carbon dating when they tested a LIVE mollusk and it showed it was thousands of years old.
Fact is, I can’t prove scientifically that God exists, and it can’t be proven scientifically that He doesn’t. Neither can macro-evolution be scientifically proven( by scientifically proven, I mean by actually using the scientific method) Evolution has become what its believers are trying to destroy: a religion.
This isnt true
I think Jesus is in Heavan right now!!
And Jesus never had a wife or kids or anything like that..
Remember he rose from the dead and went back to heavan!
If you guys dont know the story than go to a church or read the HOLY BIBLE!
Yeah, if the book they say is true says something, it must be true, right?
David, I think your post is fantastic. I loved it. I read it aloud to my husband, and he dug it, too. You’re exactly right about the fundies making us fed up and ready to fight.
My children are subjected to prayer before PTA meetings, have to sing gospel in music class, all this in a public school which is not supposed to endorse any religion. When it comes to education, folks, freedom of religion DOES mean freedom FROM religion. If I want to choose to raise my children on facts and reality, no one has the right to shove their imaginary friend down their throats.
Hi honestpoet!
I appreciate your feedback and insight.
This coerced nationalization of religion is a perilous path for this country to stake and I wrote about that problem here:
http://urbansemiotic.com/2007/01/12/coercing-faith/
Requiring religious faith to be an American is to condemn the different minded and the absolute willed down a path of harsh penance for imagined sins against the body politic.
We used to be a country where your private life was yours and what you wanted to believe — or not believe — was your choice alone and to take that privacy of choice away from you was not The American Way.
Then the rise of radical conservatism that looped in the religious fundamentalists became a divisive, but powerful, force in the nation because they controlled their agenda by controlling us with name-calling and fear mongering and the open minded middle class went along with the flow instead of fighting the insubordination against the ideals of our Founding Fathers because they thought they would be left alone. Now they’re forced –- we’re forced – to think again.
When “radical fundamentalists” on both sides fight for their vision of defeating the “terrorists” we are all certain to lose because the only way the world continues to spin is through the haze of an evolutionary ball of fire that scorches the entire world as it turns and we are all forced to start over from the ashes and the rubble and there’s no honor in that end, no Resurrection, no 72 Virgins, no nothing but a cold and mouldering grave without hope or salvation or the rule of common sense.
You write engagingly. Is that a word? Well, now it is 🙂
The problem with christianity and religion in general isn’t what people believe, it’s that they expect everybody else to believe the same thing!
“It says so in this book” is not an argument, when are people going to realize that?
Welcome to Urban Semiotic, Peter!
You have a very interesting blog!
You make some excellent points. When good people begin to ask those questions and demand answers, we’ll get back to neutral much sooner.
Oh, and Peter?
Yes, “engagingly” is a word and it means “charming and attractive” and I do thank you for noticing.
😀
Wow, you really believe they all of a sudden found the bones of Jesus? How many times now has the media pushed stories similar to this? Why? It sells. The Da Vinci Code made a killing and got an ABC special. Hey, lets make a documentary about finding the tomb of Jesus. It’s a slow news week.
Both liberal and conservative scholars (people who have spent their lives genuinely studying Ancient texts and archaeology to better understand it, rather than make money) say that this “discovery” is simply untrue. How would they ever prove it if it was true?
Don’t you think if ten people from his family were all buried together within a time span of sixty years after his death (the first gospel was written thirty years after his death), this would have raised some eyebrows among the growing community of Christians? Eyewitnesses who saw him preach, heal, etc. were still living. And this is a “luxurious crypt” to attract even more attention. How would that be kept a secret, especially when the Jewish community and the Romans were looking for anything they could find to dispel the quickly spreading religion?
Science, just like anything else, can be used to say what ever the user wants it to say. If you really want to improve America and get rid of the fundamentalists, be smart. Use common sense. Ask smart questions about everything you hear and read in the media. Raise your kids to be smart, independent thinkers who ask questions. By promoting stories like this one, people are not fighting fundamentalism. They are becoming fundmentalist themselves- fundamentalist of the sensational, people who can be easily manipulated by “science” and “news.” All the while the religious fundamentalist are organized and making plans while people are busy reading the pulp magazines in the grocery store checkout line.
Way early up, someone said: The True Believers will react the same way they reacted to the scientific proof via Carbon-14 dating “The Shroud of Turin” was a fake. The difference here is that the non-Christians (I’m assuming Cameron and pals aren’t Born Again :-D) are saying they have a body that belonged to a certain man 2000 years ago, which is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. (I’m a skeptic about religion, but that doesn’t mean I or anyone else should accept these findings as legitimate simply because they would reinforce my (non)religious views!)
Think about it- there were thousands of people named Jesus in that region at the time. In fact, that’s a favorite point made by many secularists who don’t think there was ever a single figure on whom the character of Jesus was based (another secular claim that seems unfounded to me). If there were thousands of guys named Jesus running around, should it be surprising that a tomb with one of them was found? No. Could it be that Jesus? Sure, it’s possible. But how likely is it? Not very. And how would ever know? You wouldn’t. We don’t have Jesus’ DNA, or know of any surviving descendants. This entire news article and all the responses to it in the blogosphere are a case of people seeing the results that they want to see, instead of making rational conclusions based on it.
As a skeptic, my conclusion on this one is that non-Christians are often just as gullible about extraordinary claims as Christians are. Both sides need to do a little reading, think about it, and not be blinded by their preconceptions. Embarassingly for the atheists (at least the ones who have jumped on the Jesus-body-story), the Christians seem to be on the winning side of this argument.
I say bring it on.
Maybe it’s the end of Hollywood???? hey – Easter is coming, it’s a slow movie season and there’s money to be made in them that hills……It’s a great story.
I can easily believe that Jesus was an extra-ordinary human being, that more than likely he was married, that women were more involved than later patriarchies would allow to be known, and I can accept that the resurrection was a metaphor for the idea that what he taught would live on beyond his death.
James Cameron is a great storyteller – so lets enjoy the story while claiming the right to be sceptical.
Paul
I read your post with much interest, and the way you display your views is done with graciousness. I am saddened that more who have replied here are against the idea that jesus was resurrected, I had hoped more would be followers. I am new to my faith relatively speaking. But all I really want to say is, that faith , my faith faltered for a bit, but then I made a c hoice to continue to believe. It is fair to say that for most of us who come to the Lord, come for his love and all he offers, the basis for our faith is the resurrection. All this study will ( or has to this point) prove is that there are some people who were buried who had the same common place names as The Jesus of Christianity had. And interestingly, one can not DNA Jesus anyway, if one believes in the Virgin Birth, there will only be Marys DNA ( or will there be a DNA never seen, being Gods?) who knows, but at least here on this blog, we can feel safe speaking our views, and so I thank you for that.
UPDATE:
Many of the comments in moderation are arguing points we’ve already addressed.
We’ve fully touched on the names, DNA, the scientific process and fraud and belief and so there’s no reason to publish those comments to rehash what we’ve already hashed out. Even circles have closure.
If you have something new to add, please add it without testimony or sacrilege.
You really have to now read ALL THE COMMENTS posted so far in order to know what’s already been said, argued and tempted — that is, unless you’re just here to bang your fife — but fife banging isn’t something we’re interested in here.
Read “The God Delusion” it does kinda put everything into perspective – unless of course you have religion….
Well.
The skeptic in me is doubting that it’s really Jesus. The cynic in me is hoping it is.
It’s very much a possibility that it is, in fact, Jesus. Arguing the Bible as a historical text is awkward, because it’s been edited and translated so many times. Even the individual quotes are, quite possibly, not true. Jesus could have not claimed he was the son of god, it’s entirely possible that that was a myth made up to inspire belief by early leaders of Christianity.
My Rabbi told me many years ago to look for something that would surface soon that would prove that Jesus did not die on the cross…and that Mary whose family was very wealthy had saved him with bribs and coins.
Like Jesus, Rabbi Toth was a Spritual Rabbi. He told me many times that there are “many roads to the top of the mountain.” I miss Rabbi Charles Toth and his spritual wisdom that he gave me.
Smiles and world peace,
Sharon Sutley
http://www.BabyBoomerAdvisorClub.com
Thanks for the links. Look forward to hearing more when the film comes out.
I was reading another article from Discovery News that said something about a boy mentioned in the Gospel of John being in Jesus lap at the last supper. I’ve read John and have never seen that. Where is it? What text is being used in the biblical research?
God bless,
Jerry
We have the DNA of Jesus Christ? Come on dude. Where did we get the original DNA from Jesus to compare this to? Do we somewhere have a jar of Jesus’ DNA?
So since James Cameron, director of Piranha II: The Spawning, says this is so, you believe it? Wow! I’m convinced. 🙄
Brent —
See my reply to marizen for an explanation of the DNA.
When it comes to religion it is always a sensitive subject and many choose not to talk about it. To me it’s all crock and just seems to just get people to talk. If you read the bible you should know the truth.
There seems to be a lot of issues in this string of comments. There seem to be some people who are intent on attacking Christians. These people seem to have been demeaned, hurt or attacked by Christians. To them, I apologize. As a Christian, God did not call me to do any of those things to others, He called me to serve and share His love with others. This means I share my beliefs, but I do so in a respectful manner within a relationship built with another person.
There seems to be a bigger issue of people who feel like Christians — especially “fundamentalists,” a term that has yet to be defined — refuse to respect the views of others. I assure those individuals that there are many Christians who not only respect your viewpoints, but fight for them. I am a Texas Baptist and Baptists have a long history of fighting for religious liberty. Roger Williams, who founded the first colony with complete religious liberty — Rhode Island, was a Baptist for a period. In Texas, Baptists continue to fight for the freedom of expression for Muslims, Buddhists and Atheists.
I understand the Baptist voice has been highjacked recently by a few people like Jerry Falwell who don’t seem to hold religious liberty as highly as I’d like. I grieve over that at times. But many Christians, and many Baptists, continue fighting for the liberty of all.
To me, the “discovery” of this site is an opportunity for conversation between people. A conversation much like that one going on on this site. People can respectfully exchange viewpoints, drawing from a variety of sources and expert opinions. In the end, we may not agree on this issue, but we are better people because we have communicated with each other.
David I already read all of the comments, and heard all of the stories. This proves nothing. This is not brand new news. I heard about this months ago, and have read plenty which disproves this. Most of this is based upon rumors and such. There is no base for this being factual. It is based only upon speculation.
The literal truth of the Bible is not the point. It’s not about “Did this really happen?” but “What is this story trying to tell me?” If you’re tired of being trapped in the endless (and pointless) Fact vs. Fiction debate regarding the Bible, try looking at it from a metaphorical perspective.
i wonder what the pope will say to this….probz it was good for jesus not to use condoms.
I’m sure with all these comments that mine will get lost in the shuffle. But my first rebuttal to the claim that the tomb of Jesus and His family has been found is that, according to the gospels, the tomb belonged to someone else. Joseph of Arimathea was a follower of Jesus and he took it upon himself to lay Christ’s body in his (Joseph’s) own tomb that he had previously acquired (probably for his own use upon his death). It is unlikely that Jesus’ entire family would subsequently be placed in the same tomb. If that is what this article claims, then they must answer the question of what became of the body of Joseph of Arimathea.
And I second Andrew Sleight (all except the cocaine addict part..I was never into drugs…but my sin was of another nature).
Josh H.
I’m sure with all these comments that mine will get lost in the shuffle. But my first rebuttal to the claim that the tomb of Jesus and His family has been found is that, according to the gospels, the tomb belonged to someone else. Joseph of Arimathea was a follower of Jesus and he took it upon himself to lay Christ’s body in his (Joseph’s) own tomb that he had previously acquired (probably for his own use upon his death). It is unlikely that Jesus’ entire family would subsequently be placed in the same tomb. If that is what this article claims, then they must answer the question of what became of the body of Joseph of Arimathea.
And I second Andrew Sleight (all except the cocaine addict part..I was never into drugs…but my sin was of another nature).
Josh H.
I encourage you all, especially you Mr. Boles, to read the refutes which Biblical and historical scholars have offered. The long and short is just this: Mary, Jesus (i.e. sometimes translated Joshua), and Jude (or Judah in the case of the son of the Jesus in said tomb) were some of the most common names around in that particular time. It would be similar to finding a tomb with John, Jenny and Ben Smith nowadays. I agree (as a Christian) that if the bodies are authentic, indeed the claims of Jesus are false (because Jesus and the rest of the New Testament writers point to the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus as the proof of their claims), and I will be the first to abandon my faith (not because I want to, but because it would be thereby proved false).
As far as DNA, I want to remind you also, we’re not talking about DNA which can be compared to anything but the bodies themselves. In other words, it’s not like we have locks of hair of Jesus’ lying around. So saying “yes, they are all inter-related” is certainly possible, or “this was a Middle-Eastern, Hebrew male from the First Century”, but to say “this is the Jesus of the Bible” is not because we have nothing to compare it to.
Also, pincher, I have read the God Delusion, which I found very interesting and well-written, however, I would present to you that it might not be the final word on religion or God for that matter. In fact, many people have refuted Dawkins (including avowed atheists), saying that his dogmatic views on atheism smack of 19th century Modernism. For example, Dawkins calls religion “viruses of the mind” which paint a horribly terrifying picture. But what, per se, makes religion the virus versus other ideas? I would propose to you that, in fact, it is Dawkins’ subjective discernment that religion is the virus versus any other kinds of ideas. I would point you to Prof. Alister McGrath, Oxford Professor, and his open forum he did in San Francisco:
http://www.citychurchsf.org/openforum/Audio/OF_Alister_McGrath.mp3
Also, tuskedchimp, I would like to point out to you a quick video on textual criticism. It’s a video specifically geared toward Mormons to show how reliable the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures are (as opposed to the textual integrity of, say, the Book of Mormon), but I think it is as relevant to you in this case. In terms of the reliability of the Bible in terms of copyists and translations, I would say that they contain no major differences now than they did two thousand and 3500 years ago.
I appreciate the dialogue, folks. Keep rockin’ in the free world, and I’m praying we can come to the bottom of this.
I encourage you all, especially you Mr. Boles, to read the refutes which Biblical and historical scholars have offered. The long and short is just this: Mary, Jesus (i.e. sometimes translated Joshua), and Jude (or Judah in the case of the son of the Jesus in said tomb) were some of the most common names around in that particular time. It would be similar to finding a tomb with John, Jenny and Ben Smith nowadays. I agree (as a Christian) that if the bodies are authentic, indeed the claims of Jesus are false (because Jesus and the rest of the New Testament writers point to the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus as the proof of their claims), and I will be the first to abandon my faith (not because I want to, but because it would be thereby proved false).
As far as DNA, I want to remind you also, we’re not talking about DNA which can be compared to anything but the bodies themselves. In other words, it’s not like we have locks of hair of Jesus’ lying around. So saying “yes, they are all inter-related” is certainly possible, or “this was a Middle-Eastern, Hebrew male from the First Century”, but to say “this is the Jesus of the Bible” is not because we have nothing to compare it to.
Also, pincher, I have read the God Delusion, which I found very interesting and well-written, however, I would present to you that it might not be the final word on religion or God for that matter. In fact, many people have refuted Dawkins (including avowed atheists), saying that his dogmatic views on atheism smack of 19th century Modernism. For example, Dawkins calls religion “viruses of the mind” which paint a horribly terrifying picture. But what, per se, makes religion the virus versus other ideas? I would propose to you that, in fact, it is Dawkins’ subjective discernment that religion is the virus versus any other kinds of ideas. I would point you to Prof. Alister McGrath, Oxford Professor, and his open forum he did in San Francisco:
http://www.citychurchsf.org/openforum/Audio/OF_Alister_McGrath.mp3
Also, tuskedchimp, I would like to point out to you a quick video on textual criticism. It’s a video specifically geared toward Mormons to show how reliable the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures are (as opposed to the textual integrity of, say, the Book of Mormon), but I think it is as relevant to you in this case. In terms of the reliability of the Bible in terms of copyists and translations, I would say that they contain no major differences now than they did two thousand and 3500 years ago.
I appreciate the dialogue, folks. Keep rockin’ in the free world, and I’m praying we can come to the bottom of this.
Hello,
Good post, but I think there are some important things to note.
1. The archaeologist who found the tomb says the idea it is Jesus is ridiculous on several grounds.
”Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television.
“They just want to get money for it,” Kloner said. “It was an ordinary middle-class Jerusalem burial cave,” he added. “The names on the caskets are the most common names found among Jews at the time.”
See his quote at this article.
2. You are right, if there is no resurrection, then Christians are the most pitiful of people. Our only hope is in the resurrection and the empty tomb. If the empty tomb is proven false, I would not be Christian. If the empty tomb is true, then look out. Anyone who is honestly looking into Christianity needs to start with the empty tomb idea.
3. Don’t you think the Romans and Jews who opposed (and killed) Christians would have drug out the body of Jesus and proved the whole premise of Christianity is false? That would have stopped the whole religion in its infancy…but they couldn’t find the body. What makes you think we found it now? I suggest looking at the facts closely, not just jumping onto the propaganda bandwagon.
I had to look closely at these things when I became a Christian a few years ago. I was not about to throw away my belief system without logical reasons for doing so. I was very satisfied with what I found when I would listen to both sides of the argument, and not write of one point of view out of prejudice.
That’s my story…I hope you all take the time to look into what is being sold as “news” to be sure it isn’t propaganda – either secular or Christian. God knows there is plenty on both sides of the aisle.
Take care,
Craig
Hello,
Good post, but I think there are some important things to note.
1. The archaeologist who found the tomb says the idea it is Jesus is ridiculous on several grounds.
”Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television.
“They just want to get money for it,” Kloner said. “It was an ordinary middle-class Jerusalem burial cave,” he added. “The names on the caskets are the most common names found among Jews at the time.”
See his quote at this article.
2. You are right, if there is no resurrection, then Christians are the most pitiful of people. Our only hope is in the resurrection and the empty tomb. If the empty tomb is proven false, I would not be Christian. If the empty tomb is true, then look out. Anyone who is honestly looking into Christianity needs to start with the empty tomb idea.
3. Don’t you think the Romans and Jews who opposed (and killed) Christians would have drug out the body of Jesus and proved the whole premise of Christianity is false? That would have stopped the whole religion in its infancy…but they couldn’t find the body. What makes you think we found it now? I suggest looking at the facts closely, not just jumping onto the propaganda bandwagon.
I had to look closely at these things when I became a Christian a few years ago. I was not about to throw away my belief system without logical reasons for doing so. I was very satisfied with what I found when I would listen to both sides of the argument, and not write of one point of view out of prejudice.
That’s my story…I hope you all take the time to look into what is being sold as “news” to be sure it isn’t propaganda – either secular or Christian. God knows there is plenty on both sides of the aisle.
Take care,
Craig
Very interesting.
Personally I’m coming from the perspective of being a Christian, but not an american one. I don’t feel I correspond at all to the kind of Christianity you are describing, but I would firmly say that I believe in a biblical Christianity, straight out of the bible.
I would also say that I am currently in my final year studying Physics (and Computing) and don’t at all identify with the notion of a great war between science and the art, rumours of which are perpetuated by those in the arts rather than the sciences. I appreciate though that in America this is different and theres a lot of chest beating by both Scientists and Christians. I agree with the Christians, but we dont have any of that here in Scotland.
I don’t recognise the validity of this Jesus tomb thing. You can’t say here is the name of a son of a man called jesua therefore this man is jesus therefore jesus had a son. I know that sounds simplistic but without a lot more elaboration on his supposed evidence the onus is really on Cameron to prove he aint no fraud.
I’m NOT saying its a hoax.
Just these questions need to be answered…
eg The fact theres no body there is exactly what Christians are saynig with the ressurection thing.
Further, if this was Jesus tomb why was it dated to the Herodian era between 1 BC and 1 AD?
Finally, if Jesus had descendants, then folk would have known outright He wasn’t the Christ for its written in the prophecies of the Christ “who can speak of His descendants”, so if he had descendants then all those who died for their faith or who criticised early Christianity, and who knew these prophecies (as they would have) then could have just pointed to the kids and said aha, not the Christ.
But they did not.
Very interesting.
Personally I’m coming from the perspective of being a Christian, but not an american one. I don’t feel I correspond at all to the kind of Christianity you are describing, but I would firmly say that I believe in a biblical Christianity, straight out of the bible.
I would also say that I am currently in my final year studying Physics (and Computing) and don’t at all identify with the notion of a great war between science and the art, rumours of which are perpetuated by those in the arts rather than the sciences. I appreciate though that in America this is different and theres a lot of chest beating by both Scientists and Christians. I agree with the Christians, but we dont have any of that here in Scotland.
I don’t recognise the validity of this Jesus tomb thing. You can’t say here is the name of a son of a man called jesua therefore this man is jesus therefore jesus had a son. I know that sounds simplistic but without a lot more elaboration on his supposed evidence the onus is really on Cameron to prove he aint no fraud.
I’m NOT saying its a hoax.
Just these questions need to be answered…
eg The fact theres no body there is exactly what Christians are saynig with the ressurection thing.
Further, if this was Jesus tomb why was it dated to the Herodian era between 1 BC and 1 AD?
Finally, if Jesus had descendants, then folk would have known outright He wasn’t the Christ for its written in the prophecies of the Christ “who can speak of His descendants”, so if he had descendants then all those who died for their faith or who criticised early Christianity, and who knew these prophecies (as they would have) then could have just pointed to the kids and said aha, not the Christ.
But they did not.
This is a huge discussion now in Academic circles, of which I am a member of the departments of Religion and Theology at Concordia University in Montreal. Our Theology department has rallied the carriages and this hot topic is sure to incite some serious discussion, which I think could be very useful.
I wrote about this the other day and posted some of the letters from the Professors from our department of Theology here in Montreal. Simcha is not a kook, nor is he in this for the money. I think Cameron has a bone to pick with the church, he thinks that this bombshell is going to make him some serious cash. Christians all over the place are trying to figure out what to do with themselves!!!
Faith and science are nasty bed fellows, when it comes to questioning the tenets of Monotheistic religion. I know the Vatican is readying their warriors for an all out religious war… People beware, the bulldog Benedict is on the hunt to burn him some heretics…
Thanks
Jeremy
This is a huge discussion now in Academic circles, of which I am a member of the departments of Religion and Theology at Concordia University in Montreal. Our Theology department has rallied the carriages and this hot topic is sure to incite some serious discussion, which I think could be very useful.
I wrote about this the other day and posted some of the letters from the Professors from our department of Theology here in Montreal. Simcha is not a kook, nor is he in this for the money. I think Cameron has a bone to pick with the church, he thinks that this bombshell is going to make him some serious cash. Christians all over the place are trying to figure out what to do with themselves!!!
Faith and science are nasty bed fellows, when it comes to questioning the tenets of Monotheistic religion. I know the Vatican is readying their warriors for an all out religious war… People beware, the bulldog Benedict is on the hunt to burn him some heretics…
Thanks
Jeremy
Oh, how I agree with a lot of what you are saying about the radical right. But, please don’t confuse the radical right wing with ‘true believers’. Because, if they were believers of the ‘Truth’, they wouldn’t be so hateful and intolerant. ‘True believers’ just want to be left alone, too, to worship as we see fit – that’s what this country was founded on. ‘True believers’ feel as though the religion of atheism is being pushed down our throat because we can’t mention Jesus or God in public schools. We can’t pray in public. That’s what we do and you want to make laws that keep us from raising our children as we feel we should.
Oh, how I agree with a lot of what you are saying about the radical right. But, please don’t confuse the radical right wing with ‘true believers’. Because, if they were believers of the ‘Truth’, they wouldn’t be so hateful and intolerant. ‘True believers’ just want to be left alone, too, to worship as we see fit – that’s what this country was founded on. ‘True believers’ feel as though the religion of atheism is being pushed down our throat because we can’t mention Jesus or God in public schools. We can’t pray in public. That’s what we do and you want to make laws that keep us from raising our children as we feel we should.
UPDATE:
I appreciate the comments flow is still strong and intriguing.
As we get more comments, the opportunity to be engaging and thoughtful diminishes in the light of repetition and in making the same point over and over.
You might not think you’re saying something someone else already said, but I know where we’ve been and where we need to go and that is what helps me arbitrate the necessity of publishing new comments.
Personal religious testimony will not be published here. You can do that on your own blog in your own arena but please don’t Spam this blog with links back to your blog entries.
I am happy to continue to publish comments that are unique, engaging, thoughtful, and helpful in framing the greater concerns of the discovery while offering insight and scholarly analysis.
Sometimes asking a question you cannot answer is a tremendous and effective way to open a dialogue.
I will not publish comments that are ill-of-tone, accusatory, condemning, claiming to be in-the-mind of me or other commenters, comments that pretend to know the motivations of others or those commenters who choose to post with a vested interest in supporting one side over the other.
UPDATE:
I appreciate the comments flow is still strong and intriguing.
As we get more comments, the opportunity to be engaging and thoughtful diminishes in the light of repetition and in making the same point over and over.
You might not think you’re saying something someone else already said, but I know where we’ve been and where we need to go and that is what helps me arbitrate the necessity of publishing new comments.
Personal religious testimony will not be published here. You can do that on your own blog in your own arena but please don’t Spam this blog with links back to your blog entries.
I am happy to continue to publish comments that are unique, engaging, thoughtful, and helpful in framing the greater concerns of the discovery while offering insight and scholarly analysis.
Sometimes asking a question you cannot answer is a tremendous and effective way to open a dialogue.
I will not publish comments that are ill-of-tone, accusatory, condemning, claiming to be in-the-mind of me or other commenters, comments that pretend to know the motivations of others or those commenters who choose to post with a vested interest in supporting one side over the other.
Maybe I’ll get another shot in here, and maybe I won’t, but I thought my earlier post was possibly a bit vague and didn’t state my position very well.
The “fact vs. fiction” debate over the Bible is, for many progressive Christians today, old-school thinking. We’re way over that. Most progressives don’t believe in the literal fact of a virgin birth, a resurrection, or that Jesus ever said he was the only son of God. There were reasons behind the details of all of the many and often contradictory stories in the Gospels about Jesus, but it takes a great deal of reading and research to find out those reasons. I suggest checking out some progressive Christian scholars — beginning with Marcus Borg. And none of the contradictions are or can be resolved. They don’t have to be. Metaphorical truths cut a variety of ways.
The Gospels were written decades after Jesus’ death by people with varying agendas … people who interpreted Jesus’ life in many different ways, who saw him through many different lenses. It is to Jesus’ eternal credit that his legacy, his karma, was too large to be neatly contained in one set of facts … to try to assign literal truth to the Gospels is an exercise in the deepest sort of futility. But more to the point, it’s not necessary.
I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong. I’m saying the entire fact vs. fiction argument regarding the Bible is an outdated and unnecessary argument. And I’m hardly the first person to think so, and certainly not the only one.
Maybe I’ll get another shot in here, and maybe I won’t, but I thought my earlier post was possibly a bit vague and didn’t state my position very well.
The “fact vs. fiction” debate over the Bible is, for many progressive Christians today, old-school thinking. We’re way over that. Most progressives don’t believe in the literal fact of a virgin birth, a resurrection, or that Jesus ever said he was the only son of God. There were reasons behind the details of all of the many and often contradictory stories in the Gospels about Jesus, but it takes a great deal of reading and research to find out those reasons. I suggest checking out some progressive Christian scholars — beginning with Marcus Borg. And none of the contradictions are or can be resolved. They don’t have to be. Metaphorical truths cut a variety of ways.
The Gospels were written decades after Jesus’ death by people with varying agendas … people who interpreted Jesus’ life in many different ways, who saw him through many different lenses. It is to Jesus’ eternal credit that his legacy, his karma, was too large to be neatly contained in one set of facts … to try to assign literal truth to the Gospels is an exercise in the deepest sort of futility. But more to the point, it’s not necessary.
I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong. I’m saying the entire fact vs. fiction argument regarding the Bible is an outdated and unnecessary argument. And I’m hardly the first person to think so, and certainly not the only one.
Carol,
Since when have you not been allowed to pray in public? When I used to pray, I could pray anywhere, seeing as I have freedom of religion.
You can’t be “banned” from praying in “public.” That’s compares to being banned from breathing air when you’re outside of a private residence.
How is it that “we” are pushing Atheism down your throats, when our public schools (I should know, being a student myself) are filled with underground Christianity.
If anything, what “we” are trying to do is support our freedom OF and FROM religion. You and your children (have you any) have the right to pray wherever, whenever you want. Just as “we” should have the right NOT to be subjected to any sort of mandatory prayer or the like.
Just a thought,
Matthew.
Carol,
Since when have you not been allowed to pray in public? When I used to pray, I could pray anywhere, seeing as I have freedom of religion.
You can’t be “banned” from praying in “public.” That’s compares to being banned from breathing air when you’re outside of a private residence.
How is it that “we” are pushing Atheism down your throats, when our public schools (I should know, being a student myself) are filled with underground Christianity.
If anything, what “we” are trying to do is support our freedom OF and FROM religion. You and your children (have you any) have the right to pray wherever, whenever you want. Just as “we” should have the right NOT to be subjected to any sort of mandatory prayer or the like.
Just a thought,
Matthew.
Does it really matter if I decide to practice the principles regardless of the status of the preacher?
Hindu extremists fight over the existence of Lord Krishna, to me his sermons are extremely significant to live a good, peaceful life –
http://ezinearticles.com/?Lord-Krishna:-The-Apostle-of-Life-Skills&id=451401
The fact that he might be real, a fictitious character of the oldest epic poem of the world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata
, or just a part of a myth…doesn’t change my opinion about his principles.
The lessons are way more important.
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/asia/as-nhild.htm
India has witnessed the second biggest communal riot over an assumed socio religious debate based on a mosque which was supposed (?) to be the birthplace of a Hindu deity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya_Debate
The mosque was demolished by Hindu extremists.
Godhra attack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence#Godhra_Attacks
took place as a repercussion.
And then, Gujrat violence in 2002 –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence
Was any good came out of this, ultimately?
Does the world need more baseless debate like this – who was born where and died where?
Does it really matter if I decide to practice the principles regardless of the status of the preacher?
Hindu extremists fight over the existence of Lord Krishna, to me his sermons are extremely significant to live a good, peaceful life –
http://ezinearticles.com/?Lord-Krishna:-The-Apostle-of-Life-Skills&id=451401
The fact that he might be real, a fictitious character of the oldest epic poem of the world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata
, or just a part of a myth…doesn’t change my opinion about his principles.
The lessons are way more important.
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/asia/as-nhild.htm
India has witnessed the second biggest communal riot over an assumed socio religious debate based on a mosque which was supposed (?) to be the birthplace of a Hindu deity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya_Debate
The mosque was demolished by Hindu extremists.
Godhra attack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence#Godhra_Attacks
took place as a repercussion.
And then, Gujrat violence in 2002 –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence
Was any good came out of this, ultimately?
Does the world need more baseless debate like this – who was born where and died where?
Hi David,
I just post a comment here with ‘n’ number of links and it disappeared…caught by Akismet???
Hi David,
I just post a comment here with ‘n’ number of links and it disappeared…caught by Akismet???
Hi Katha!
Yup! Akismet caught you! Thanks for letting me know so I could save your valuable comment.
Thank you for your outstanding and researched ideas. Your keen mind is appreciated in the midst of this conversation.
Hi Katha!
Yup! Akismet caught you! Thanks for letting me know so I could save your valuable comment.
Thank you for your outstanding and researched ideas. Your keen mind is appreciated in the midst of this conversation.
Fantastic post. Simply fantastic.
Fantastic post. Simply fantastic.
The common use of these names aside, wouldn’t the tomb of Jesus and His family members have been written in Aramaic? These tombs varied from aramaic, to hebrew, to greek. Another thing to consider is that the early believers, which would have included Jesus’ family would have most likely not lived where some of the greatest persecution would be, so wouldn’t they have avoided Jerusalem to include being buried there?
God bless,
Jerry
Another false (and useless) answer for a false (but hurting) problem.
Christian fundamentalist will see the hand of Satan behind Cameron and Jacobovici. They even may become anti-semits, anti-science, anti-film and all the “anti” they deem necessary to re-enforce their belives and actitudes against non-belivers.
What importance does it have for a person with faith or for an agnostic what a molecule of carbon may prove? None whatsoever.
The faithfull wont loose their faith and the agnostics wont become belivers. And it is certain that atheist wont change becacuse of Cameron and Jacobovici’s film.
The problems that are caused by the Christian Fundamentalism in America have nothing to do with religious faith.
Their true source is biggotry (and fear, and hatred).
There are times when biggotry disguises itself in racism, other times it wears patriotism, or sexism, or “conciousness”, or “third-world-ism”, or “plain good sense”, or ” pragmatism”, etc, etc, etc.
If Cameron and Jacobovici would realy want to make an useful and meaningful film, they would address the true source of the problem.
But it seems that they only will fight against the religious desguise of biggotry.
They will only agitate the disguise’s cloth and make it even more visible.
Since they are certainly very smart people, one could wonder why are they making such an useless film. (And I mean usless in respect to the stated purpose of their film)
I suspect Cameron and Jacobovici to be iconoclasts.
Iconoclasts are strong believers.
And iconoclasts -if they have enough resources such as filmaking abillities- have good chances to become biggots…
The da vinci code was at least, less arrogant.
I am still a believer. But I have to admit that this finding rattled my emotions, initially. If this were true, my entire life would have to be re-examined, with almost 20 years totally wasted.
Remember the Jesus Box…the one that was found a few years ago? It was said to have been owned by James, the brother of Jesus. It was then reported to be a fake. They said the box was genuine (from that time period), but the inscription of ownership was fake. Here is the link:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/06/18/jesus.box/
Now, someone faked an inscription on a box from the time period of Jesus. Can we assume that this can also be done with graves? Can the grave be a fake inscription? Or, are we so intolerant that we will incline ourselves to believe ANYTHING that devalues the Bible?
When I think back on Cameron’s body of work, I am not overwhelmed, nor do I blindly take whatever he presents as fact. I also find it hard to believe that this information on the tomb has been surpressed for 27 years and it took the director of True Lies to reveal some sort of cover-up.
I also see a flaw in logic when reading the fact that Cameron’s film uses Bible studies to help prove his findings. Can we assume that if the very nature of Jesus is a farse, that the whole book might as well be a farse? If you can disprove the backbone of the whole book, why should you use it as a source to stand on?
Anne – that is a very interesting viewpoint about the scientists proving the existence of God.
Interesting… I read a book “the Theory of Everything” by Physicist Stephan Hawking [rumoured to be the next greatest brain after Einsten]. In it, he had sought to find a theory to link all theories together to explain the entire universe.
What he found astounded him. One of the startling discoveries he found was that the Universe was growing, and the second, conditions on Earth was so perfect that, if there were even a 0.00000001% difference in conditions, Life wouldn’t be possible.
Stephan Hawkings isn’t a Christian as far as I can remember, and he had run ins with his former wife too (who incidently was of the Christian faith). Sadly, they’re no longer together. However, it is rumoured that even Stephan Hawkings has reluctantly accepted that the Universe is somewhat too beautiful to have happened by accident…
Still. the finding of the tombs are really an interesting discovery! And their implications will definitely be as a wide-reaching as they are uncertain…
while I am interested in the development of this story, if Jesus were really buried somewhere, his family members would not be buried in a plot – Jesus was considered a criminal, of the highest degree, and he would have ultimately been put in a less than honorable grave – not with his family, children, wife, etc. Even if one does not believe in God or organized religion, and does not take the Bible as being Truth, one still has to admit the unlikelihood of actually finding the real grave of Christ, nevermind one that contained his family.
It is difficult to be religious in this ever growing secular society without being considered ignorant, uneducated, or as a fundamentalist of some sort. I am by no means a theologian, and as a practicing Christian who actually believes in her faith AND science (Catholicism by no means disapproves of scientific discoveries, evolution, etc, as many people would like to believe), this is an issue that I am glad was brought up and addressed in such a thoughtful post. Thank you!
Two quick things that I’m pretty sure aren’t repetitive.
1) I have seen, in the above comments, this discovery compared to when it was proved that the Shroud of Turin was fake… It seems to me we’re looking at something of a tremendously different magnitude. The shroud could be fake without having any bearing on the validity of the resurrection. Just because a couple of monks got creative and invented an artifact a long time after the fact, it does not necessarily follow that the resurrection was a hoax. People believed in the resurrection for years beforehand.
2) If Christianity was solely a moral code and a good lifestlye, then I would completely agree that there would be no cause to worry about who was buried where and whether or not the resurrection was literal. But Christianity, in the orthodox sense, necessitates that Jesus was not just a good teacher, but was (and is) actually God — thus it becomes enormously important. Christianity is historically founded on not just the teachings of Jesus, but on His Person. It is therefore completely accurate to say that the resurrection is a key point of the faith.
I will say that I have yet to see a good reason to take this discovery too seriously, though. I won’t try to defend or attack either side, because I will most certainly be getting repetitious by doing so. But I felt like the two above points had not yet been mentioned very clearly and I wanted to take a moment to set them out there. But my personal position is that I cannot see how one could legitimately substantiate the theory that it was the Jesus of Nazareth buried in that tomb.
Well, I didn’t make it all the way through all the comments – there sure are a lot! But I thought I would go ahead and jump in and put in my two bits. This is my first visit to urbansemiotic blog. I see you’ve put a lot of effort and passion into writing the article and responding to so many of the comments. Wow!
I am curious, what is your background, your story? You really hit the nail on the head with the statement that without the resurrection, Christianity is an empty vessel. One would have had to have some fairly good knowledge of the essentials of the Christian faith in order to draw out this point so confidently and conclusively.
I am Catholic, though I have long thought of myself as an “Expanded Catholic” and I’m sure that Pope Benedict & I would not see eye-to-eye on just about anything (though I would’ve loved to have had the pleasure of meeting his predecessor – a truly spiritual man, if old fashioned).
I had the tremendous fortune of going to a Catholic college that was run by the Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur…. a fiesty bunch of gals who have many times over gotten themselves in hot water with the Vatican.
Now, its been about 15 years since I graduated, but there are things I learned in my religion classes (which were required, of course) that have stuck in my mind, things that did not shatter my faith but affirmed it. For instance, I learned that there are many things that are lost in translation (okay, that wasn’t so surprising, but some of what was lost was!). The most wonderful to me was that the Holy Spirt, refered to in all our texts and prayers as HE – was originally refered to – in the Arabic texts – as SHE (proving my second grade teacher, Sister Elivra correct when she told me that the Holy Spirit was the feminine side of God… I had asked her “what about Got the Mother and God the Daughter when she was giving Holy Trinity instruction.)
Did you know that in early Christianity there were no priests, no bishops, no hierarchy – many of the “churches”, which were underground, were run by (gasp) women! The hierarchy of the church was put in place about 300 years after Jesus’s crucifiction… by lawyers. And, I gotta think they made some changes to suit their needs, nothing against lawyers, but seriously – I’m sure they weren’t any different from lawyers today.
Since I was, oh, about 8 or 9 years old – it has made much more sense to me that Jesus did not actually “put his body back on” but appeared to his disciples. Why else would the disciples he walked with on the road not have recognized him? And he walked into the attic that was locked, course poor Thomas missed that. The stories of Jesus after the resurection are much more ethereal than the pre-crucifiction stories – they have an almost super-natural quality to them. And this has always made perfect sense to me.
Jesus was a Man. Christ is the Son of God. And “we are all one in Christ” – so, if that is true, which I believe it is, then Jesus was a Man who was brave, he was not afraid of revealing his true nature: Christ. Most of us are desperately afraid of that, aren’t we? Yet, we are all one in Christ. Jesus said so himself: “These things that I do, ye shall do also, and even greater things than these.” But he should’ve added, but you can’t be afraid of it.
Anyway – if the body found really is Jesus it doesn’t shake my faith, actually I think it would be really cool. I could finally pursued my mom that all my “crazy notions” might actually be true! 😉
There was life before god. There will be life after god.
Humanizing Jesus is a wonderful thing. From what I have read, Jesus was an amazing man – one of us, who taught the world great many good values.
The believers of organized religion do not believe in what Jesus taught.
Too many people consider faith to be associated with their organized religion. De-mystifying Jesus is not a bad idea.
Just learning, when you give your entire life to something that is found to be a lie, it is indeed cause of re-examining. Why did I pray? Why didi I worship? Was it worth it? Was it for nothing? In the end, of course it was not meaningless, as the tomb find is baseless and raises a lot of questions. But if it were absolutely true, this whole thing would be a disaster. I Corinthians 15:14 tells us this way, “If Christ is not risen from the dead, our preaching is in vain, and so is our faith.” So, even the Bible tells us that our Christianity is in many ways, wasted if Jesus never rose up from the grave. Thanks for your comment.
i would love to watch this documentary.
This sounds like an incredibly easy presumption to make.
Being filmmakers this sounds like publicity.
I do not believe this is because of the “rise of Christian Fundamentalism” as the author notes. I believe it is due to the rise of secularism in our nation. It is not the result of “pressing ‘Lord Jesus’ into our schools and courthouses,” it is the removal of Jesus.
I knew teachers who were atheist, new age, Buddhist, and believed they were the sun god Ra (no joke), and were free to speak at length about their beliefs, but none who could speak clearly about Christian beliefs.
This is silly, not shocking.
As an agnostic and someone who is constantly re-examining her beliefs and faiths, I thought I’d jump onto this bandwagon for three reasons: 1) Religion and spirituality fascinates me. 2) My astrological rising sign is Taurus and as such, I apparently love to argue. 3) Playing the “Devil’s Advocate” (haha, pun intended), I’m looking at both sides of the issue…
First, to let those who read this know where I am coming from so as not to blatantly offend anyone, let me quickly sum up my own beliefs: While I respect organized religion, I believe religion is more about trying to grasp God. But we can’t grasp God because he/she/it is beyond our rationality and mental capability. I believe that to define God is to limit Him and to set boundaries in which he exits. By limiting Him, and setting boundaries, we strip Him of being the ultimate reality and the absolute truth. Thus He does not seem as magnificent nor does it seem to be worth worshipping. As far as religions, both modern and ancient… remember, what was once thought a religion is now considered a mythology (Greek, Roman, etc), and when you look at the basics of all religions, the message is basically the same: respect and love your self, your neighbor, and basically the world in which you exist.
Religion, democracy, and church separate from state…. bull cr*p… Never going to happen. Religion is so far imbedded into our society that even in a “free” country such as ours, it will still impose itself upon us, whether we’re believers or not. I’m sure you’ve already heard that on our monetary currency it says, “In God We Trust”. In the courtroom before one takes the stand, he/she puts his/her hand on the Bible and raises his/her right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God.
For those Christians who find the whole idea of finding Jesus’ body and family offensive, outrageous, and blatantly wrong… who cares? Really. Think about it. If such a thing as this can so alter your faith, then you are not as affirmed in it as you think you are. No one has said to you, “Jesus’ and his family were found, now your faith is a bunch of crap. Stop believing these lies.” Besides, it is nothing new for other people and religions and faiths to question your own faith. Stay grounded. If you truly believe that Christianity is correct, then stay firm in what you believe with all your heart. For the Bible says, “If a person will not carry the cross (suffering) that is given to him when he follows me, then that person cannot be my follower.”
Luke 14:27 (ERV). Things like this are testing your faith. Deal with it, but don’t retaliate by trying to change others’ beliefs, and basically go out on a your own self-led, self-funded crusade. I believe Siddartha Gautama (aka. the Buddha) had it right. He told his followers not to simply take his beliefs as truth, but to question it, re-examine it, and explore other beliefs first before deciding to devote themselves. Also, he only preached to those who wanted to hear him preach. He didn’t seek out people and try to change their beliefs. Rather, people sought him out. Same thing with Jesus. Jesus was more or less a nomad who preached on the steps of Jewish Temples. Those who wanted to listen, listened. Those who didn’t want to listen, didn’t listen. He never forced anyone to listen to him. He simply said, “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men” (Matthew 4:19). Yes, Jesus told his followers to preach, but trying to preach the word of God to someone who is truly atheist and/or close-minded and/or is truly a different faith, religion, belief, etc, and/or really doesn’t want to listen to you is a waste of your time and a waste of his/her time.
As for finding Jesus and his family… so, how do they know what Jesus’ DNA was like? I mean, what are they comparing it to that they know it’s Jesus and His family? It’s not like they have a DNA sample from Joseph that they can go from. There’s nothing to compare it against. I can’t just give a DNA sample to a lab and they can tell it’s me unless they have a reference point, like a sample of hair, or a toothbrush or something. Even telling my identity from the DNA of immediate family really reduces the odds of an accurate match. They can tell we’re related, but the accuracy of my identity really drops off quickly. I won’t argue that there are people who claim to be followers of Christ who are pushing political actions in countries globally that are oppressive and destructive. Remember that just because one claims to be a Christian does not mean that they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Now, I know by making this statement, of which I am honestly “stealing” from a friend, makes me sound hypocritical and that perhaps I’m not agnostic afterall, but let me say that I did grow up as a Christian Catholic. I know what Catholics believe, and, after stripping away all the rituals and interpretations of the Bible, I know what the beliefs are of a true Christian and what being a Christian means.
Anyway, with that being said, the Bible’s pretty clear, when Jesus was crucified, His disciples weren’t waiting around to try to steal the body and make it look like He was resurrected. They fled for their lives. They chickened out and took off. They were cowards. Peter denied having ever met the man. Yet, they all got back together, knowing that what they were about to preach was going to get them all killed, violently, and like their Lord. I can’t imagine getting together a bunch of friends and saying, “Let’s start this cult. We know that the Marines are going to storm our compound, and then disembowel us and whip rocks at us until we die from internal bleeding if we do this cult. We’re not going to get any money from it, and we’re going to have to dedicate our lives to wandering around asking for food and handouts to survive. We know that what we’re telling people never happened, and that it’s all a lie, and we’re just going to give them false hope. But man, it’s worth it to give up our jobs, families, and homes for this lie we’re about to make.” If Jesus wasn’t resurrected, then where did Christianity come from? Or is there someone willing to argue that his body wasn’t resurrected; rather, it was his soul? And if it was his soul, not his body, why would this shatter a Christian’s entire belief system? It hasn’t shattered any of my Christian friends’ belief systems. It hasn’t changed any of my Agnostic friends’ belief systems. And for my atheist friends, it has only affirmed their beliefs. So, oh my God, we’re back where we started… how about that.
[Comment edited by David W. Boles for content.]
No big inciteful comment, I’m afraid.
Enjoyed reading the post and the points you raised, plus some of the comments.
But mainly, the headline has got me giggling for the last few days – thanks.
LilyRose:
Read your Bible; the statement that “without the resurrection, Christianity is an empty vessel” is nothing new. I understand that this is a brand new revelation to you but it did not originate here on urbansemiotic.com. The apostle Paul stated this very thing himself…in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 15:12-19 states that “if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty….If in this life only we have hope in Christ , we are of all men the most pitiable.” Go on to read verse 20 and beyond to see what else Paul has to say on this matter. Good reading.
I just thought I should help give credit where credit is due.
What do Muslims think about Jesus? (extracted from a respected Islamic site).
Muslims respect and revere Jesus (SAW) and await his Second Coming. They consider him one of the greatest of God’s messengers to mankind. A Muslim never refers to him simply as ‘Jesus’, but always adds the phrase ‘upon him be peace’. The Quran confirms his virgin birth (a chapter of the Quran is entitled ‘Mary’), and Mary is considered the purest woman in all creation. The Quran describes the Annunciation as follows:
‘Behold!’ the Angel said, ‘God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations. O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near to God. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and in maturity, and shall be of the righteous.’ She said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?’ He said: ‘Even so; God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He says to it, “Be!” and it is.’ (Quran, 3.42-7)
Jesus (SAW) was born miraculously through the same power which had brought Adam (SAW) into being without a father:
Truly, the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, and then said to him, ‘Be!’ and he was. (3.59) During his prophetic mission Jesus (SAW) performed many miracles. The Quran tells us that he said:
‘I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it and it becomes a bird by God’s leave. And I heal the blind, and the lepers, and I raise the dead by God’s leave.’ (3.49)
Neither Muhammad (SAW) nor Jesus (SAW) came to change the basic doctrine of the belief in One God, brought by earlier prophets, but to confirm and renew it. In the Quran Jesus (SAW) is reported as saying that he came:
‘To attest the law which was before me. And to make lawful to you paff of what was forbidden you; I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and obey Me.’ (3:5O)
Jesus (Aisa SAW) was never killed or crucified nor resurected. He was simply raisen to got – his creator – God is capable of everything. For more truth about Jesus existence and deparature please read the Glorious Quran.
Peace
Oh brother.
Yes, Mary was the perfect woman, able to have a baby without having sex. Right.
I guess that’s why Catholics and Muslims are so well known for being nice to their women, with that standard to hold us up to.
Scriptures create mental prisons, in any culture.
I don’t get the big deal here. The Jesus story is fantasy no doubt. The holy book was written many years after the fact when memories were bad. Authorship is not clear. The Mormons found a whole other set of holy books that other childs of christ won’t recognize. Why have different Jesus sects anyway? Why bother to pay a church to worship? Why not be a christ lover in the privacy of your own home? Does anyone else see the silliness of this effort to cherry pick bible passages to make make money by tithing and Sunday donations? Religion in America is big business and you have to pay if you want to pray.
I was raised catholic, but I am very open minded. Lets just say it is Jesus and his family and we are proven that his body never went to heaven, that doesnt take away the possibility that his soul went up there. In the bible when he rose from the dead it talk’s about a woman wanting to hug him but he told her no because he is in the process of accending. What if his body was gone when they discovered the tomb but his body stayed when he actually went up to heaven, and that part they did not see. People wonder why the bible doesnt say anything about him being a father or married but perhaps they left that out to protect his son so he didnt get the same cruelty that his father got. Lets not forget that the bible has been rewritten and translated for many decades so we actually dont have the “original” there could be pieces missing or a lot of misunderstanding. Think about it. One of the 10 commandments is that dont use the Lords name in vain. Some people might take that as dont swear using his name. Or others might think of it as dont claim yourself as god by using his name. People say that those names people with those names that were found were very common back then, but research also shows that the odds of actually having all those names in the same family, let alone the same tomb is 1 in 600 chance. Jesus was not wealthy back then but Mary’s family was considered ecentric back in that time so they would have been able to afford it. Considering that Jesus saved her from being demonized, perhaps they wanted to do him and his family a favor. My personal opinion is that if this comes out as being true we should be thrilled that Jesus did exist. Instead of being stubborn and upsept because a huge majority of us believed a specific events. And lets not forget…belief is not based on facts but what we believe and what we choose to believe. Religion is what is suppose to get people through life. Look it the holocaust…1000’s of people thought killing jews was right in their minds but they were proven wrong. So me being a catholic, having a open mind I am ok with finding out that what I believed my whole life could have been different from what really happend. But what is really important is not the details of events, but that he was a wonderful man that did many wonderful things and if he had a family on top of that, then that to me is more of a powerful message then if he was so close to being perfect, like we all are not. How can any of us can become even close to being like that. If he was like all of us, to me that would give more people hope that we can be a kind, gentle, helping human just like he was.
I was raised catholic, but I am very open minded. Lets just say it is Jesus and his family and we are proven that his body never went to heaven, that doesnt take away the possibility that his soul went up there. In the bible when he rose from the dead it talk’s about a woman wanting to hug him but he told her no because he is in the process of accending. What if his body was gone when they discovered the tomb but his body stayed when he actually went up to heaven, and that part they did not see. People wonder why the bible doesnt say anything about him being a father or married but perhaps they left that out to protect his son so he didnt get the same cruelty that his father got. Lets not forget that the bible has been rewritten and translated for many decades so we actually dont have the “original” there could be pieces missing or a lot of misunderstanding. Think about it. One of the 10 commandments is that dont use the Lords name in vain. Some people might take that as dont swear using his name. Or others might think of it as dont claim yourself as god by using his name. People say that those names people with those names that were found were very common back then, but research also shows that the odds of actually having all those names in the same family, let alone the same tomb is 1 in 600 chance. Jesus was not wealthy back then but Mary’s family was considered ecentric back in that time so they would have been able to afford it. Considering that Jesus saved her from being demonized, perhaps they wanted to do him and his family a favor. My personal opinion is that if this comes out as being true we should be thrilled that Jesus did exist. Instead of being stubborn and upsept because a huge majority of us believed a specific events. And lets not forget…belief is not based on facts but what we believe and what we choose to believe. Religion is what is suppose to get people through life. Look it the holocaust…1000’s of people thought killing jews was right in their minds but they were proven wrong. So me being a catholic, having a open mind I am ok with finding out that what I believed my whole life could have been different from what really happend. But what is really important is not the details of events, but that he was a wonderful man that did many wonderful things and if he had a family on top of that, then that to me is more of a powerful message then if he was so close to being perfect, like we all are not. How can any of us can become even close to being like that. If he was like all of us, to me that would give more people hope that we can be a kind, gentle, helping human just like he was.
UPDATE:
Wowser! What a great show last night on the Discovery Channel. I especially appreciated the hour discussion they had after the documentary.
I am now convinced Jesus is, in fact, dead in his grave and the DNA and mathematical probabilities confirm it is Him along with his family.
The Catholic faith crumbles as the body of Jesus is found dead in its tomb and the Resurrection Myth is scientifically confirmed to be just that.
UPDATE:
Wowser! What a great show last night on the Discovery Channel. I especially appreciated the hour discussion they had after the documentary.
I am now convinced Jesus is, in fact, dead in his grave and the DNA and mathematical probabilities confirm it is Him along with his family.
The Catholic faith crumbles as the body of Jesus is found dead in its tomb and the Resurrection Myth is scientifically confirmed to be just that.
David,
I’m sorry to hear about your bad experiences with “the Religious Right,” and with many Christians in general. Your pain and frustration is palpable.
I am having a hard time following your piece as a news story and not merely an editorial. In reading the Newsweek and Time magazine news reports about this story, I was startled to hear that many in the scientific community have serious doubts as to the veracity of Jacobovici’s methods.
If I had only read your blog, I would not have known that side of the story and I wonder how those scholars would interpret your puzzling statement that science and technology are growing more powerful and infallible.
As I continued to read your piece, the juxtaposition of this “discovery” with the apparent lack of a potential candidate for the 2008 U.S. Presedential elections seems to marginalize or diminish the global group of people who historically have called themselves Christians.
You might be interested to know that today, the majority of people who comprise that demographic are not white Americans.
As tantalizing as this story may be for those who are aching for it to be true, I think you might be a tad premature in declaring that “the DNA and mathematical probabilities confirm it is Him along with his family.”
All that being said, I am glad to have read your piece and to learn how this story is being understood by those with different perspectives. Thanks.
Wowser! You’ve been duped!
I can’t believe watching such sensationalized, junk science actually helped solidify the dubious claim for you. Very sad.
I watched the documentary and it was super convincing. I think they found the dead body of the Jesus man. The real one. Not the faker. Things will change from here out. As they said in show, this is only beginning not end.
Oh, jeez, good one. Jesus dead. Not resurrected. Lots of people will have to think again about what they shove down their children’s throats and the harm it does.
Arin, from what I’ve seen of knee-jerk denials (see above), I don’t think lots of people are in the habit of thinking at all. About much of anything.
They seem to line up like sheep and accept whatever their chosen authority figure tells them to think.
Weak. Poor excuses for human beings, if you ask me.
Yes, David, it was an impressive documentary. I’m not sure how many people actually watched it, though, since their minds were made up beforehand.
Arin, from what I’ve seen of knee-jerk denials (see above), I don’t think lots of people are in the habit of thinking at all. About much of anything.
They seem to line up like sheep and accept whatever their chosen authority figure tells them to think.
Weak. Poor excuses for human beings, if you ask me.
Yes, David, it was an impressive documentary. I’m not sure how many people actually watched it, though, since their minds were made up beforehand.
I can not nor can anyone with a half of a brain deny the damage inflicted on humanity by unfettered religious dogmas worldwide. However the latest discovery in Israel could prove that this man existed. Having said that the core of Christian philosophy is sound, life sustaining way of life. The religion is not. I doubt the man called Jesus would be a ” christian” especially an American one. Could this discovery in fact be the fulfillment of the prophecy that he will return? The metaphors in the bible all point to the same thing; the ”awakening” in the heart to the spiritual life.This discovery in no way takes away from this truth. It only reminds us that the individual is responsible to discover your own connection to the mystery that is the ground of your own being. The teachings of Jesus at its core have helped many to do this.
I can not nor can anyone with a half of a brain deny the damage inflicted on humanity by unfettered religious dogmas worldwide. However the latest discovery in Israel could prove that this man existed. Having said that the core of Christian philosophy is sound, life sustaining way of life. The religion is not. I doubt the man called Jesus would be a ” christian” especially an American one. Could this discovery in fact be the fulfillment of the prophecy that he will return? The metaphors in the bible all point to the same thing; the ”awakening” in the heart to the spiritual life.This discovery in no way takes away from this truth. It only reminds us that the individual is responsible to discover your own connection to the mystery that is the ground of your own being. The teachings of Jesus at its core have helped many to do this.
Hi honestpoet —
Yes, I agree, watching the show was evolutionary in thought and enlightening of spirit. The show was investigative and reasonable and thorough.
The hourlong “discussion” after the show was also valuable for scientifically and intellectually shouting down all the barbs and accusations tossed at the documentary during the week before it aired.
Good stuff. Good learning. Good listening.
Hi honestpoet —
Yes, I agree, watching the show was evolutionary in thought and enlightening of spirit. The show was investigative and reasonable and thorough.
The hourlong “discussion” after the show was also valuable for scientifically and intellectually shouting down all the barbs and accusations tossed at the documentary during the week before it aired.
Good stuff. Good learning. Good listening.
hi..1st time here ..i am quite interested in that documentary. Do anyone have the source? i would like to watch it .
hi..1st time here ..i am quite interested in that documentary. Do anyone have the source? i would like to watch it .
Its treu jesus his grave is found but the gouverment is trying to keep their mouth shut cause if its treu that its really jesus and his family theres going to be a big chaos in this world
and that people will turn them to the gouverment cause the gouverment r having the people in his power right now and if the beleving onces will hear that jesus his body whas found and his family they will realize that jesus diddnt rise out of his grave and went heaven and they will realize that they believed in that and not being treu so they will turn again the gouverment and be angry and this world would change u know the da vinci code said alot over this too if u really turn ur mind in it da vinci tried to tell this but the people wouldnt listen cause they believe in jesus but would see that jesus is normall and that they lied over them so i know that the gouverment is trying to hold this back to save their own power and trying to keep this news shut for more time the world is changing and this would be the end of the evelution right now
Its treu jesus his grave is found but the gouverment is trying to keep their mouth shut cause if its treu that its really jesus and his family theres going to be a big chaos in this world
and that people will turn them to the gouverment cause the gouverment r having the people in his power right now and if the beleving onces will hear that jesus his body whas found and his family they will realize that jesus diddnt rise out of his grave and went heaven and they will realize that they believed in that and not being treu so they will turn again the gouverment and be angry and this world would change u know the da vinci code said alot over this too if u really turn ur mind in it da vinci tried to tell this but the people wouldnt listen cause they believe in jesus but would see that jesus is normall and that they lied over them so i know that the gouverment is trying to hold this back to save their own power and trying to keep this news shut for more time the world is changing and this would be the end of the evelution right now
the vaticans in spain is trying to solve this mistery
the vaticans in spain is trying to solve this mistery
I have not doubted the historical Jesus and this finding by the researchers and the documentary by Cameron helped solidify that belief. From the time of my first Religion In America class as a Sophomore in college I determined that the Fundamentalist position of Divine Dictation just didn’t set with me. Nor do I agree that the Bible is infallible. Nor is The Pope.
I was excited to think that tombs of Jesus Christ and his family were found. It gave me an odd sense of my belief being strengthened, for I had some fears that He was a huge, global myth. And what of the implications of that???
Finding the ossuaries with the inscriptions gave me evidence to believe even deeper that Jesus Bar Christ did indeed exist. I never ever held the belief that his physical body ascended into Heaven, sorry Catholics, sorry Fundamentalists. I hold rather sinister the machinations of men who arranged the books of The Bible, deleted and omitted that which didn’t serve their purpose. In its earliest form the Bible may have been pure tradition based on the facts as best they could. But the societal powers that be muddied up the waters for their own agenda.
I hope that those ossuaries were that of Jesus and his family. I am watching with delight the dodging and hedging from the Fundamentalists….
I have not doubted the historical Jesus and this finding by the researchers and the documentary by Cameron helped solidify that belief. From the time of my first Religion In America class as a Sophomore in college I determined that the Fundamentalist position of Divine Dictation just didn’t set with me. Nor do I agree that the Bible is infallible. Nor is The Pope.
I was excited to think that tombs of Jesus Christ and his family were found. It gave me an odd sense of my belief being strengthened, for I had some fears that He was a huge, global myth. And what of the implications of that???
Finding the ossuaries with the inscriptions gave me evidence to believe even deeper that Jesus Bar Christ did indeed exist. I never ever held the belief that his physical body ascended into Heaven, sorry Catholics, sorry Fundamentalists. I hold rather sinister the machinations of men who arranged the books of The Bible, deleted and omitted that which didn’t serve their purpose. In its earliest form the Bible may have been pure tradition based on the facts as best they could. But the societal powers that be muddied up the waters for their own agenda.
I hope that those ossuaries were that of Jesus and his family. I am watching with delight the dodging and hedging from the Fundamentalists….
But wait! Didn’t Dan Brown claim that Jesus had a daughter? Oops, more fiction.
seems like this dicussion have no any new information updated.
is that mean this fact will be cover up again to protect the christian ?
Hello,
I am new to this site.
I have been trying for years telling people that Jesus was not God The Son, was never God nor will be, For this has nothing to do with flesh and blood.
The scriptures even tell you that, That which is born of flesh and that born of spirit is spirit. What Christianity did when they cannoned the bible threw out a whole lot of books because they did not understand them.
The rasing from the dead means you wake up from your sleep and then you understand. Everybody with the exception of a few and I mean a few are dead as written in scripture about the dead burying the dead, your dead for you are asleep. All are sleeping with what the scripture says the harlot woman, and should say Harlot Female. All have missunderstood that from a long time ago was written a Man God an a Woman Goddess. There are 2 Morning Stars one is called Male which means Strong One and Female which Means Weak one.
What people do not realize is that there was a Trinity before Father Son and Holy Spirit, and you cannot find a truthfull understanding from any one, this may be the symbol of the star of David, two triangles means two trinities one fell and the other has yet to come and it wont be until what Christianity calls the Marriage, for it means of Joining together of two and it is not the Christian Church.
In Buddhism, Gautama said he found a way and had a rebirth, He also said it was 3 and 49 days but did not say anything about it so there is no way I can compare what He went through. This may be due to what scripture He new, for he was a Hindu and did not know Hebrew scripture. But the 3 days as He says, found the way of Jonah, do not throw out scripture but if it makes no sense dont buy what they are telling you what it means. As Jesus would have put it they are wolves in sheeps clothing and you are swallowing a camel. Take the story of The Flood of Noah read it real good for the only way they can put it is to add to the scripture their own thoughts trying to make it work. You cannot have over 28000 feet feet of water above the oceans or it would still be the same way and they have to add to it to make you swallow it.
When reading scripture you need all the common sense and logic you can muster up, and buy Lexicons for yourself and see all the meanings of the words.
The Sun and the Moon in scripture is not talking about the Sun ad Moon in any solar system, The Sun Simply put means the Good One and the Moon represents the Evil one. I do not know if the ancients were worshipping the Sun and Moon in the solar system or they understood what they represented.
Walt
It is rediculous to believe in christianity in the first place. You are just as well to read Dianetics and become one of L. Ron Hubbard’s minions. Or, perhaps, maybe believe in the polytheistic views of the ancient Greeks, and Romans. I am so tired of listening to what everyone believes. How much longer can the crazy christians continue to fight the mad muslims? You are all foolish dedicating your life to a fairy tale. I’ve got an idea, Lets take all of our women and cover them up in their entirety, lets oppress our people the best way can, by offering the riches after death. All religions are essentially man’s way of validating himself, and his own existance. Can you fucking people quit being so arrogant for maybe just a moment so we can all live this life in peace. I’m sorry my friends, this is your one shot. Make the most of it.
Hello,
I tell you the truth, Christianity will probably be the 1st to fall, then someone will try to combine all religions into one and it might be Islam. Then soon after ALL RELIGIONS will Fall, for it has nothing to do with religions. You have to do it as an individual. Do not throw out scrippture Get yourself Lexicons so that you might try to understand it. I ask a lot of Questions from teachers who have degrees in theology and when I pushed them for an answer, I finnaly was told they did not know what the scriptures were talking about.
If you are in a religion any religion GET OUT.
Hello,
This is in response to one of the Post. The 1st church that was formed after Jesus, was called “The Followers Of The Way” and its symbol was of the Fish. The Fish is the one written in the Book of Jonah, for the story itself is about the Spirit, It is not physical.
I’m not a believer, especially because I cannot accept that at my age (21) and state of unknown, I could claim to believe in something or anything that kind of scale of “hugeness”.
I do not know a reason for life or things that happen or wy we are here or where we go, but I cannot claim that there is a Higher Creature dominating our moves. We have gone too much onwards in history to even try to claim or to know what was true at the time, and that makes us completely unable to comment or even think of religion. I remind you, this is my humble participaton to the unfolding discussion, I’m not trying to offend the believers. Everyone needs a little bit of happiness and faith in life, I mean, even kids believ in the Easterbunny and Santa, and I believe in my mother and husband to keep me safe and sound. Pick your Higher Power, there’s no rule for what it has to be.
But back to the point;
We were not there when Jesus or his family was, we do not know if he was just a village-nutter claiming proposterous things and managed to raise a mass-mania and start a new religion and then get killed because of being a nutter. Or whether he actually was a son of god and whatnot, because in any case only thing we had to base it on was his own word word. Or the word in the bible nowadays, as He is not anymore walking amongst us saying these things, and if You, dear reader, think they are, then I suggest a quick visit to the Cuckoo house to get rid of those sounds… Anyway, Or the people of the time then did believe, and his answer was “highly believable” for the time for various reasons. I mean, can you change water to wine? Or multiply a loaf of bread to many loafs or whatever the man did… It weird, but it’s highly unreasonable of us to try to claim we believe and that we know that he was real and there is a god, we have nothing but a “story book” to base it on! The bible was written decades later, and even nowadays most films have a happy end where the bad guy loses and the good guy gets the glory. How is the bible different? The style of writing in it is naturally different, the times were different. Even the Grimm brothers wrote different to the modern fairy tales… Times change.
What gives us the allowance, the nerve, the audacity to claim we KNOW, we BELIEVE because we KNOW THE TRUTH? Quite silly really, but hey, I’m all for freedom of belief.
Also, I also think it is silly to base this upon the certain combination of names. Of course there were many with teh same names, especially when and if Jesus was a great man to be followed, don’t you all think that poeple who admired him would have named their childre after the Great Man and his buddies? Comparre to modern life, even Leonardo-bloody-Di Caprio was named after Leonardo Da Vinci… It happens, and it doesn’t prove anything, my dear fellow discussers. And the fact about DNA just proves that previous point, they were all perhaps one way or another related but not perhaps THE jesus son of the merry father of us all, or THE mary magdalene the master or whatevers… It is all probability and fashion of the times and happy coincidence.
Or was it not?
And David, thanks for a great site for us who have thignsto say whether it matters or not. It has been a great visit to a lot of minds…
Happy Easter!
So…I have to say..we really have no proof that God was real in the first place…all we have is old texts..and they have been changed to our likeing. We changed what was there to what we wanted…the old texts have been changed and rewritten by us so much, that we don’t know what is up or down….hell we could be worshipping a cat with 2 tails for all we know….so there is no proof out there about GOD…only some really old paper….I mean the people who wrote thoes stories could have been crazy for all we know…and if this story proves true….that Jesus didn’t come back to life….well then I have been right all along.
Even if there is truth to Cameron’s show, the religious believe no matter what facts contradict those beliefs.
The story is fascinating, and I think it will do a lot to shake the faith of believers. However I am one of those believers, I just have a different take on the story, life and death of Jesus. I see that there are too many closed-minded believers… no one out there – that does believe – wants to know more. “That’s it”, they say, “it ends here… and I just have to believe and I’m going to heaven”. Man, there are so many things wrong with this sort of way of thinking. Jesus came as a man, and died. I do believe that Jesus raised from the dead, but you will never be able to disprove this, because many people overlook what it says, that Mary and the women did not recognize the man in the garden to be Jesus. Later, at the shore, neither did his deciples know – from looking at him – that it was Jesus, they knew after speaking with him… The theory I have, is that Jesus – the man – was in the spirit of God – get this, all of the spirit was in this man, and – for this time – no longer over the earth. It was not the man who resurrected, it was the spirit that left the body – after a job fulfilled – and having moved onto another host to show himself to the deciples again, before dispursing back into the earth to come onto people…
And then, there is Joshua, the son of Jesus. This doesn’t suprise me… there is no reason that Jesus should not have fathered a son, and it was probably during the time that his deciples were away doing his teaching for him – until Mary, and Joshua were fine to be on their own. But like I stated above, it was the spirit that was in Jesus – this is what made him different, what gave him (um…) powers. Therefore, Jesus having a son would have no bearing on Joshua continuing the Holy Blood Line. It is in spirit, not in blood…
So here are my simple points, and I do find the story intriguing… Keep sifting for me.
Sydney —
I appreciate your thoughtful and inquisitive comment!
You gave us all a lot to think about and for that I thank you.
My mother is a born again christian. she adopted this form of Religion (although it is not a religion in her eyes) after being a disalusioned non-practising catholic. 18 years later, at 69 years of age she is being ripped-off by the penticostal church.
she has no savings, very little superannuation, no home of her own, but still works as a nurse. she has been giving 10% of her wage/pension for that long! If i question this, she says i don’t understand. I do not understand the so-called christians that say nothing can distroy or alter their faith!
Her faith in people and (modern) life has been distroyed, because of what she has seen and learned over the years, but that is different.
She is scared of germs, strangers, death, and life. christians are not meant to be this way because of their faith.
It is amazing to me that no matter what life may bring, christians think some things are gods way and others are not, depending on what they like at the time. selective thinking! (mans way or gods way.)
if science tells them the ice caps are melting they beleive, if doctors work out the smoking kills, they believe.
but when jesus bones maybe found it is not true or the devils hand.
but lets believe in a 900 year old moses, adam and eve, noah, the story of jobe, and friggin’ kenneth kopeland!
jesus and the bible is all these people seem to be able to relate to.
Thank you for that compelling comment, Ted!
Was Jesus Born of a Roman Raping?
I was startled to read today that Jesus — yes, THAT Jesus — may have been the child born from a Roman raping of his mother, Mary….